By German show line dogs, I'm talking about GERMAN show dogs, SV dogs, not what American breeders are producing...

Here:
http://www.gentlesoulsshepherds.com/deformities/germanshowline11.jpg
This dog was rated VA1 at the SV-Bundessieger-Zuchtschau (2006) in Oberhausen.

I have no clue what that means , but this is a German dog, Susan - and apparently an accomplished SV one from what I could understand. Why does he have a roached back? Is that considered desirable by the SV? All the dogs from the sieger shows have that kind of structure.

http://www.gentlesoulsshepherds.com/deformities/germanshowline10.jpg
Here's another one...

This following one was a really nice-looking dog from my point of view from the 2006 bundessiegerzuchst...um, whatever, and he also has a roach back: http://www.gentlesoulsshepherds.com/deformities/germanshowline12.jpg

Susan, this is what I was commenting on. It's just my impression from looking at the pictures and seeing these dogs move around; I have no wish to get involved in the politics or tactics of breeders to appeal to sellers.

I'm not talking about drives, working abilities, hip ratings, health issues etc. etc. etc. Can you please just comment on what you see in the photos?

Thanks

Oh, here's a female from that 2006 SV thing: http://www.gentlesoulsshepherds.com/deformities/germanshowline14.jpg

Even the females have the roached backs...

Of course the roach back is not correct. Nobody said it was. Problem is it is the American Show Shepherd people who, having nothing else to criticize, have exaggerated the issue. Have you ever been to even one SV style show or are you going off what you have heard others say & a few Internet videos?

I forgot to say by definition most of the dogs you have pictured actually don't have roach backs/banana backs since a roach is when the break is higher than the withers! As far as what I will or will not comment on, that is my perogative; however, this thread has now careened way off topic.

This thread has been very interesting to me....lot of food for thought and validates my decision to never get into breeding. There are so many important issues to consider, health and temperment-wise that I think it needs to be in the hands of people with good common sense and a passion for the dogs. That being said, I am really grateful for this site because it has re-educated me and gave me the tools to take on this rescue dog.....had I not had access to this info I would not have risked it because he was showing progressively more aggressive or frustrated behavior the longer he was in the shelter. I've spent hours going through the forum archives and will continue to do so....and I'm also grateful for the encouragement, it helps. The dog is a joy to have in our home and responds to Ed's methods beautifully.....we're lucky to have him! (the dog AND Ed!) Thanks everyone!

I'm sorry Susan, it wasn't my intention to offend you; I'm not sure why you're taking it so personally.

I never read any discussions on the back/topline issue in shepherds, whether from an American or from a German perspective.

I just noticed the different structures for myself - it's pretty obvious from looking at pictures of these dogs and seeing them in person. To an SV person, the dog may look like a champion, but to the average person off the street, they see the dog and say "why is it shaped like something out of a Tim Burton movie?" (hehe, too funny Saffron )

All I did was post pictures of SV show shepherds who won top honours in SV competitions under SV GERMAN judges in GERMANY, not America, and commented on what I saw in the picture. What would attending an SV show change? The winning dogs look the way they look - the pictures speak for themselves.

If the weirdly curving spine with the hump in the top of the back (don't know what it's called if it's not a roach) isn't desirable, why are these dogs, bred and shown in Germany, winning under German SV judges?

I guess that was my question...

I didn't realize that simply posting images of champion SV shepherds would hit a nerve like that (you'd think that breeders and SV people would be proud of their champion dogs!), but clearly it has.

I apologize... it's too difficult to try and discuss problems in show dogs with breeders/enthusiasts, they get way too defensive

At least the working dogs people judge based on the performance they see... they're usually more objective in their views.

Couldn't agree more on the off-topic-ness of these posts though; it's probably time to put this discussion to rest, lol.

You have not offended me. I don't think you have "hit a nerve" with any showline breeders. Things are not as black & white as you seem to think. Working lines have as many problems as show lines, just different problems! My dogs have all been working line dogs, so we are actually on the same side of the fence. I think you need to know what a roach back is. The curve must be higher than the withers. Do you see that in the photos you posted?

So what is the term for what you see in the pictures?
(The pictures I posted earlier in this thread definitely showed some roaches).

Whatever it is, it's not seen anywhere in nature or in dogs bred solely for working ability. The curved sloping spine with the hump in it (I hope there's a term I can use for that, it's too long to write every time, lol) just doesn't look right.
Since it only appears in show dogs and not in wolves or in any other working breed (including working line shepherds), I'm led to believe that it's an extreme sought after by show people.

Why, is what I'd like to know but can't seem to get a straight answer on.

I'd love it if you could provide any insight as to why show people would breed that into their dogs. As I said, I don't know what the standards are as you do, I'm just pointing out my personal observations.

 Quote: yuko blum

I apologize... it's too difficult to try and discuss problems in show dogs with breeders/enthusiasts, they get way too defensive

I have not had difficulty at all discussing German show line dogs (I own two) with breeders/enthusiasts, or educated detractors who have experience and wisdom to back up their opinions, including many posters I've come to respect here. On the other hand, I have found it impossible to discuss these issues (positive OR negative) with someone forming an opinion from some internet pictures, who admittedly knows nothing about it, and doesn't appear to be trying to learn anything about it - for better OR for worse.

If you are in fact interested in hearing from German Show Line owners and/or breeders, then posting a few pictures and calling the dogs "deformed" is not a great way (IMO) to engage a meaningful discussion, or learn what people with more experience than you have to say about it - whether the resulting discussion is positive or negative.

Trying to be respectful,
Beth

You are geting straight answers, Yuko. Maybe you just don't like the answers!