rain:

For a beginner those were some good questions and comments

Catherine,
We protection train with Ivan Balabanov in San Francisco. We meet in the Presidio on Wednesday evenings and Sunday afternoons. Ivan does protection training in Schutzhund, Mondioring, French Ring, personal protection, and police service work. He's an excellent trainer. Email me at laura@xul.com if you'd like more info.

Well, this is an interesting discussion thanks to everyone's questions and answers. Pete, your posts connecting prey, fight, defense & threshold couldn't be clearer.

I would like to try to put "prey" in a slightly different context and to try to take some of the wussy-onus off of it -- maybe even bring it into the realm of "real" for Catherine . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> To do this I am going to move the "prey" issue from protection/schutzhund and focus it a bit on sheep herding -- which is what I do now with my GSDs. But, first let me stick my foot in "it" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> and say that IMO ALL biting behaviors in the dog come out of prey -- including fight and defense. Now let me try to explain.

The dog is a predator -- the sheep are its prey. The dog is genetically programmed to "make prey" -- IOW to seek, find, kill & consume prey in order to survive. The dog "makes prey" out of its arsenal of INNATE predatory behaviors. This arsenal of predatory behaviors includes tracking, stalking, chasing, pouncing, biting to catch (full-mouth grip), biting to kill (head-shake bite) and biting to consume (tearing & ripping bite). In short, the prey-making dog ultimately wants to BITE. The bite is the reward of making prey for the domestic dog while consuming the prey is the reward for the wild canid.

My herding dog is stimulated to make prey every time he is around sheep. As a pup and as a young dog first learning to herd, his prey-making behavior was ultimately aimed at biting the sheep -- not the bite to consume but the bite to hold/contain/control -- the full-mouth grip. This is the hard-wired, instinctual behavior pattern of the predator which insures its survival.

My job as shepherd is to teach the dog to use acceptable alternative behaviors other than the bite to accomplish the same thing -- to satisfy this instinctual need to hold/contain/control prey (sheep). The herding dog learns to satisfy its prey-making urge to bite by learning to contain the sheep in a prescribed area and by learning to use its stalking & circling behaviors (to mention only two). The dog LEARNS that it can hold/contain/control its prey without having to bite.

Now, how do fight & defense come in? Oddly enough, in exactly the same way they come into schutzhund protection -- the same way that Pete explained it in his posts. The "real" prey animal does not only run away from the predator. The "real" prey animal can and will also turn on a predator, try to run-off & intimidate a predator, and try to kill a predator. A mother ewe will turn and fight off a dog for her lamb and a ram can be downright vicious & deadly not only to the dog but also to the shepherd (I speak from experience <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> ). A herding dog learns to defend itself from attacking prey and it learns to fight attacking and defending prey the same way Pete described that a protection dog learns to fight the helper. The herding dog learns to defend and learns to fight. But, fighting and defending in herding MUST be built on confidence-building experience FIRST -- just as in protection training. The young herding dog must not be put in a position to have to defend against a ram before it has developed the confidence and experience to tackle the job. If it is, the dog will learn to run away instead of learning to defend itself and to fight for its prey. The good herding dog will tell you when it is ready to take on a ram.

So what is it about learning to bite in prey that builds fight and defense? IMO it is the power of WANTING TO POSSESS the prey object more than anything else -- biting is the ultimate expression of ATTRACTION in the dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> . It is attraction that makes the dog work through defensive feelings when being threatened; it is attraction that teaches the dog to fight; and, it is attraction that enables the dog to overcome stress and fear. In herding the attraction is "real" prey, the sheep -- in protection the attraction is the "man-become-prey" (the dog LEARNS via confidence-building exercises to see the helper or adversary as prey -- like a big, mean moose <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> for example). IMO if the dog did not learn to view the man as prey, it would not have the attraction to fight to control or overcome him -- the predator is innately attracted to prey, not to other predators. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't protection training to teach the dog to hold or control the bad guy, not to drive him away? IMO this is the whole purpose of teaching the dog to work in prey -- like it or not. IMO prey is NOT a dirty word -- anyone who thinks it is, is more than welcome to come spend some time in a pen with my rams just before rutting season <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> -- it's starting soon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ellen,

Its not that I don't understand the conventional definition for prey drive or think it has a "wussy-onus" (I like that). I just don't think its the only way or THE WAY to develop confidence in a dog or build a foundation and end up with a well-trained, stable, confident companion/protector. Its certainly the conventional way - I won't argue that.

Predators do not use full mouth grips to catch large prey (including the big cats and smaller cats, but thats a different topic). Thats too dangerous. When facing animals larger than themselves, they outmaneuver and outflank - biting and retargeting as necessary and weakening the prey. Its suicidal for them to bite and hold immediately as they're taught to do with humans - they'd be seriously hurt. What type of dog is harder to fend off? One thats biting and retargeting - ie. fighting in a natural way, or one that just bites and holds? Why do we humans think we know better than nature how to have a predator take down prey?

If a dog is under real stress and fighting for its life is it going to use a full mouth bite and hold on for control when the 'prey' hasn't been weakened? If it is, that animal isn't thinking or hasn't been allowed to think.

Lets face it Catherine,

Since you can make so suggestions as to how to train "your method". You have no idea as to how to proof a dog, every idea you have come up with has been repeatedly been shot down by people have tried it and discovered it doesn't work.

You kind of need to make a choice, learn something from people who have actually trained dogs, or move off into your little fantasy world. We wish you luck, you are going to need it!!

Well now, that has nothing to do with training unnatural behavior and handicapping the dog vs. working with natural behavior. If you haven't seen it work then I guess it just can't be done. And the earth is flat.

Your feedback is far more illuminating than you probably realize.

Catherine,

The thing you don't understand is you are the one arguing that the world is flat. Your argument is lets set back dog training 20 years, obviously it should work better. But it didn't work better. Once the world was proven round most people, except the Flat Earth Society, accepted that the earth was round! You don't get it we tried your way, and the earth was flat, now it is round and we do things that work better. If you want to go back, go back. If you can do it better, I should be in S.F. in about a year and a half, feel free to beat my dog in a "real world" protection trial. You have had a wonderful oppotunity to prove your point, you just can't come up with anything to use. You just think so. I tried it for a long time, wishing doesn't make it so. If you can come up with a better mouse trap I will be the first on your door step. I modify training techniques with every dog I train because either someone else or I come up with something that works better. I am willing to learn, but I am not willing to give up proven methods on a hope and a prayer. I will have my dogs too long to take a chance on not getting what I need.

Catherine-

You should watch a good catch dog in action. They bite and hold on. They have to be schooled to pick a spot where the hog can't get at them. If they let go, the hog or bull would either nail them or run away.
The idea of a dog biting, letting go, biting and letting go...would not be very effective. Why let go of a vital spot (I used the inner thigh in another reply) and grab a less vital one? (Forearm)
I only want the dog to let his hold go to get a better one.
Additionally, puncture wounds are not all that traumatic.
On the other hand, when a dog gets a good, deep hold and shakes it out, it tears flesh, damages muscle, and often breaks bone.
What you are talking about, I call "nipping" What I'm talking about is "punishing"
Some dogs do this naturally- they've been bred to. Plus, they have the crushing bite to go with it.
I think you have the idea that the dog is going to bite, and just stand there while you "fight it off".
Sorry if this has been graphic, but that is how it really is.

In reply to Ted and Richards comments,it seems to me that what they are really saying is,if you want your dog and handler to survive use this method,if you dont use Catherines method.
You can not explain what really goes on to people who have never been in a life and death situation,so why bother to try.

Well I've stayed out of it till now, but I do have a question.

Catherine
When is a dog trained? How will you know? If your dog works in an "all natural" manner is he obedience trained? Obedience to a human handler is certainly against his nature. Before anyone says it, I'm not talking about a natural response to a pack leader, I'm talking about "sit", "down", etc.

I've heard you and others talk about how predators will bite and release, allowing blood to flow till the prey is weakened and they can bring it down. Two things:

1. You seem to think a dog should not be worked in "prey drive", yet you consistently refer to dogs as predators and those objects they bite as prey. Therefore the dog in the wild a dog is working in prey so that makes "prey drive" natural.

2. You say that predators don't take a full mouth bite and hold onto larger prey. That is true to some extent when you are talking about VERY large prey, such as a wolf pack hunting a moose. Many times one member of a pack will attempt to hamstring the moose to slow it down, however at times one pack member will grab a hold on the moose's neck or anything it can get and hold on for dear life and effectively slow it down until the pack can collectively kill it. Other predators also take a bite and hold tactic when killing prey, such as a mountain lion or even an African lion.

So if dogs see us a pack members, then when the dog takes a full-mouth bite and holds someone maybe it's the natural thing to do. He's simply waiting on the rest of the pack (us) to arrive and help him out.

Also I don't think it's fair to make humans appear to be large prey to a dog. If a dog has been taught/conditioned to have no fear of a human then even a large human is not really that big of a threat to a 95lb GSD.

My two cents worth. I'd be surprised if it was worth even that much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Chris