With regard to Mike's post (good points!), I know he doesn't have access to Cesar Millan, but for those of us who do see his National Geographic program, there was an unforgettable episode (Emily, a Pit Bull) that I should add to the things that can really drive home the need for a DD collar with some dogs.

Emily took a nap in that episode, and I seriously doubt that any dog-savvy person, seeing it, thought that it was overkill. That was a dog who could not be allowed outside and who ended up rehabilitated, instead of euthanized.

CM did indeed evoke the behavior so he could address it. It was either that or move in.

I should just keep quiet, but everyone knows I won't. I think you may have misinterpreted Mike's post, or at least I interpreted it differently. I read it not as condoning using it as a training collar, or at least not on a continual basis, but using to put a quick stop to a serious situation. I would call that an emergency. It generally only takes once for it to click in the dog's head that it is not in his best interest to bite "good guys." Reminds me of a thread where we talked about "one good correction" vs. a "thousand nagging ones." I wouldn't classify Mike's scenario as using it as "training" in the way you meant, as in continual set-ups. JMO.

I would love to have seen that episode, Connie!

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

Mike,

I still don't agree with using the DD as a corrective training collar. I just don't. How have people rehabbed dogs with out them? Its possible but it takes more work and time and I'm ok with that.

If you have never needed one then congratulations, that means you have never encountered a dog that needed one and haven't gotten injured by a clients dog. That's always a good thing! But lack of experience with a certain type of dog does not mean that a specific tool is inhumane or inappropriate, it is simply that you have not seen enough dogs to come accross one that is uncontrollable.

Whether you agree or not doesn't really matter to me My high school teachers didn't agree with me sleeping in class either.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

Mike,

I still don't agree with using the DD as a corrective training collar. I just don't. How have people rehabbed dogs with out them? Its possible but it takes more work and time and I'm ok with that.

I think, Ben, what you are okay with is an idea that a "normally" out of whack dog might be dealth with as such. What you don't realize is that the dogs that are truely being addressed here are dogs you have never come into contact with in your experience. These are dogs that as you say "with a little more work and time" can be rehabilitated...thing is MAJOR amounts of damage can and will be done in the interim. Are you okay with that? You really must not understand the state of mind that some of these dogs exist in. Would you for instance, take a wild wolf and try and rehabilitate him with treats? Wouldn't take long till your hand was removed...heaven forbid you deny him his treat, regardless of whether he earned it or not..he WOULD get his treat from you OR make you the treat instead. This is maybe a slightly exaggerated example but not far from the mark. What we need to do here is to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I wonder, when was the last time you had a "working dog, perhaps from Chech lines as far back as could be recorded, try and come up a leash at you with the full intent of leaving you unmoving on the ground? Completely different issue entirely than having a pet dog that mommy has allowed on the bed for too long that you have to correct. In such an instance a simple, "No, schookums, down of the bed, with a treat held down low, might suffice. So, really it is just a matter of circumstance and of the dogs being discussed. Even if the dog were, by some miracle, made to uderstand anything with positive only training, do you honestly think that with the type of mentality that we are addressing here, that at some point down the line the dog wouldnt try again? It's in their nature to try again, and again and again until they WIN! State of mind or genetics, either way, its what the DOG wants, not you, that matters most to them. What it boils down to is we all agree that a dd collar is useful in a situation that involves harm to the dog itself/another dog/or human. The choke collar serves no useful purpose other than to mess up the dogs neck AND each dog requires different methods depending upon temperament and genetics and lastly, to assume that primarily motivational methods can be used on all dogs in all situations is simply naive and shows lack of exposure to the kind of dogs being discussed in this thread. Period.

This is a real intersting thread, Now i do not want to change it in any way but in one respect this Agressive bit also applies to my Fred who i said on another thread elswhere on this forum that he has some issues to overcome, and i will explain it if i may and let you people decide if it is the aggressive problem that i think it is
We can walk out in the Street or in the City. We pass dozens of people and some with Dogs, He will walk by those Dogs without even looking at them, and is fine with people just walks content by the side
But, when he gets onto the training field he starts, He pulls and wants to get to the other Dogs on the Training Field.
What we are doing at this time is to put him on a long line tied to a post and get him to Down and stay down, whilst the other Dogs work on the Field
He has on the Electric Collar so as soon as he barks and starts to move out of Down we give him a shock and tell him to Down, He is improving slowly, He has never been aggressive towards us or any human just wants to get to the Dogs on the Training Field
In this case should a DD collar be used on him,
Normally he is trained on the Road with a Pinch Collar and a DD collar as a support collar as prescribed by Ed,
but the use of the pinch is very seldom needed during his walks and training at the home area
in fact you can walk him on a leather collar with no problems
I also mentioned one time he was off work from the training field for about 6 to 8 weeks with Pano Problem in the front leg, Before this he was perfect with the other dogs on the Training Field, but since he went back he seemed to have changed

Hey Mike! I'm really upset you didn't use my ordeal for an example. LOL

Hold on while I find you a bucket for those tears

20 year old girls always seem more sympathetic in stories, dontcha think? We could make you a 20 year old girl too if you like!

Just glad I still have all my fingers. At my age, 20 of anything sounds good. LOL

 Quote: Howard Knauf

Hey Mike! I'm really upset you didn't use my ordeal for an example. LOL

Come on, you're not going to leave us hanging are you?? Let's hear it!