Vince-

Yes, I take bites from other people's dogs. A tug toy or ball was also never used with these dogs. But the bites issued are probably not what you would want as a sporting person. As I have stated before, I am not an advocate of the full mouth bite.

As an agitator, if you can get across to the dog that you intend to hurt the handler and convey that to the dog, they will come out in defense. It is in the body mannerisms and how you "feel." This does NOT include striking the dog.

I have seen a dog work in "prey." The dog would not out...so another handler rolled up a lead and threw it. The dog outed immediately to chase down that lead. The same dog was deployed, and a kong was dropped by the helper. The dog picked up the kong and then went after the helper, but couldn't bite because its mouth was full.

I do not believe in the drives, I just use the terms that you use to put my way of thinking into perspective.

As for affecting others, good, I hope I am. You don't need to believe what I say, nor do I expect it to be accepted without questions. I think any trainer should welcome questions, and all students should ask them. I know I do my share of questioning.

I have seen the same thing that prizgard is describing is not done in prey. It is done as a serious attack, and has been done under live gunfire.

Man I hate getting into this as it always causes conflict, but just couldn't help myself...
Prey = Stimulated by movement, noise, chase etc. It is also be learned behavior that the dogs recognize and react.
Defense = Self-preservation. Based in fear of self-preservation. Must view a threat in order to engage or react.
Fight / Combat = A willingness to engage in combat for the fulfillment of defeating, enjoyment of combat, and not stimulation needed.
For me in PSDs, we want a dog who works in Fight/Combat drives. He can have some prey if need be, but he should not bite from prey. Defense to me is worthless. A PSD that works from defense is a unstable, unreliable worthless PSD. If a dog requires movement (prey) what will they do against someone who is lying down. Remember that there is NO equipment to "load" the dog. A dog who works in prey requires the upload or movement. The same can be said on a defensive dog. A passive person, while still a threat to officers, can not load a dog who is used to working in defense. Thus, the defensive drive will not bring the dog to the fight. A dog with true fight drive will engage when told, because he's told, regardless of suspects’ actions. A dog in defense will without doubt have a lower threshold of breaking off and going into flight. If a defensive dog is overpowered, they will run real quick.
As for young dogs. I have never seen a dog with combat or fight drive under 15-18 months. It is normally closer to 2 yrs than not. Dogs who are working under that age are almost all prey. Defense in a young dog, will come back on you somewhere in the work. A trainer who pushed defense on a young dog, IMO is a moron. You can have a serious LOOKING dog in prey, but it can still all be prey. I'll get Lou in trouble now to save me the typing. My first, not only but first test for a PSD is the stake out test. I have some very slight variances to what Lou has written, but it very easily will flush out where a dog's brain and drives are at.

THAK YOU Josh!!!!!

Bill,

To the dog it doesn't matter if it is live fire or not, the only thing the dog cares about is the noise. Ed has some wonderful tape of 6 WEEK old puppies in prey drive on a guy's pants while he fires 6 shots. These puppies have know idea about what a gun is other than it makes noise, and with small puppies if they don't see it they don't even know what is making the noise. What you describe is a case of projecting on to the dog what it should be afraid of. Dogs don't understand the concept of a gun the way a person would. Dogs learn by experience, you can't sit down and explain it to them. They have no concept that the gun can hurt them. They are either afraid of the noise or not. They don't understand bullets. That lack of understanding is part of the reason that they can do what they do. Would you go runnig up on someone shooting at you? A dog will, they don't know they are in danger. A dog that has been shot may make the association, it may not, but without the experience they don't know any better.

I believe a dog knows the difference between a blank and a bullet. Yes, the dog needs to work throught the noise, but I also believe there is a difference in live fire and a bullet approaching you and a blank.

Well Bill good luck, you will need it!

Bill writes: I believe a dog knows the difference between a blank and a bullet. Yes, the dog needs to work throught the noise, but I also believe there is a difference in live fire and a bullet approaching you and a blank.
*** So as not to flame you on this one...in what context are you speaking of? Is there a slight sound change in the actual noise of a real round breaking the air that we can not detect that would make a difference? What if you changed to some +P rounds? What would be the difference between a FMJ and a hollowpoint rounds? Now we also would have to test on all various caliber. Sorry Bill I don't see the logic in this. Why would you risk the public, yourself or the dogs by needing to do live fire? We do live fire w/ the dogs in a down or a stay, but that's at the range or a shoothouse. Normally if there is a gun involved, it's not a dog call. Why would it matter if the guy has a AK47 and is zippin off 40 rounds a clip...yea..send a dog at that. More often then not, it is more important for the dogs to be used to their handlers shooting than badguys. Ever hear..don't bring a knife to a gunfight...don't send a dog into one either. If the guy HAS a gun..your dog is going to be part of the problem(once shot) than the solution. With all that being said, why do we need to do live fire? If the gun is pointed at you, it doesn't matter if it has bullets, is empty or has blanks..this is a shooting call, not a dog deployment. Am I missing something? Not a flame, but would like to hear your answer Bill as you have never posted them when I have asked before.

Richard:

Finally I found ONE thing that I dissagree with you on! Civil is never prey. If a dog lites up in prey on a helper with no equipment it is because the helper became the stimuli. I knew if I tried hard enough one day it would come. Great posts friend!

Peter:

Great someone finally has a clue and he doubts himself. Stand up tall. I need you on my side. Just trying to make light out of this before tempers flare.

Bill:

Richard said it all. Don't go no where. Who would be left to argue with? Ha Ha

Josh:

Bravo!!!

I could never figure out how so much lousy protection work got done.....I get it now!!!

Bill

As for a dog in prey not making a solid bite: After they worked a friend's GSD, that was started in prey, they took of the bite suit and the dog left 4 perfect impressions of his jaws on the guy's arm. Big welts. This dog does now work in defense.

Working a dog in defense has nothing to do with how "you" feel, it is how the dog feels.