Quote: steven lepic

You people and your crutches. Leashes, collars, treats, anthropomorphized "praise"...c'mon.

Me? I prefer ye olde school methods. This goes back when man and dog were in true spiritual harmony. I bite, growl, and lick my dog's junk.

That way he TRULY knows corrections and praise are coming from me.

Hey Steve,
Can you clarify which are praise and which are corrections ? Did you have to introduce them with compulsion, Or did you just get him drunk?

Jennifer,

Hey, I have an idea.

Give me until the pup pictured below is two.
She is being trained with motivational training.

You keep training that Mal in your pic with compulsion.

Then we'll take 'em to the field and see who's better off.

 Quote: jennifer n. hack

... You click the moment the dog does the task, then give a treat.... what skills does that take?

Is that seriously your overview of marker training?

This comment:

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

... The people that diss marker training are typically the people who have the least understanding of the method.

is ringing true.

Reading the first paragraph of a training article or book may work for "I am aware of all types of methods of training," but may not be so hot for actually understanding a method.

Not fully understanding a method is fine; everyone has to go from not understanding to understanding. But it's best not to dismiss it as "requiring no skill" until you do understand it, I think. JMO.

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

You click the moment the dog does the task, then give a treat.... what skills does that take? I am not downing any method, I am just saying what it is.

Have you ever shaped an exercise from start to finish -- for example a retrieve -- with marker training?

I can't understand how that would require no skill but compulsion training it would???

Katie

Jennifer said...again!
"I said "To click and treat requires no skill and is easy to learn". No special skill, A novice can do it. You click the moment the dog does the task, then give a treat.... what skills does that take? I am not downing any method, I am just saying what it is".


Why is there less timming involved in properly marking a behaviour then there is in correcting a behaviour?
I don't care what method is used (I've done most) and NONE of them are worth a crap without proper timing.
the difference being, as Steve said, is making a poorly timed correction adds just more stress on the dog. Mistiming with marker training just means the dog is getting a free reward.
Obviously there are excellent compulsion trianers out there. I even consider myself to be pretty good at it although I haven't needed any leash, pinch, e-collar correction in the past 5 or so yrs.

The problem is seeing dogs go through their routine with their tails hanging, ears back and afraid to move without worrying about WTF is going to happen.
You see this at any trial, no matter if it's Schutzhund, AKC, whatever.
It's still all about timing!!!

 Quote: katie o'connor

Have you ever shaped an exercise from start to finish -- for example a retrieve -- with marker training?

I can't understand how that would require no skill but compulsion training it would???

Katie

How would you shape an exercise from start to finish using compulsion? I can't figure how you'd do that in the first place.


@Jennifer N. Hack
I agree that with marker training it is easy enough to learn the fundamentals. I only consider myself mediocre when it comes to dog training. I know more than the average pet owner but I'm far from as skilled as a professional. I was able to shape retrieving a flashlight I knocked onto the floor in a week of studying Ed's articles and a few sessions working with Molly. Yes, she learned it faster than I did.

Molly retrieving a flashlight -Shaped

What I don't understand is that since marker training is so easy to grasp, why don't you teach it to your clients. I'd be much more impressed with a trainer that teaches me how to train my dog instead of them just doing it for me and handing me the leash when it's over. That would be like a lesson that keeps on working.

 Quote: steven lepic

You people and your crutches. Leashes, collars, treats, anthropomorphized "praise"...c'mon.

Me? I prefer ye olde school methods. This goes back when man and dog were in true spiritual harmony. I bite, growl, and lick my dog's junk.

That way he TRULY knows corrections and praise are coming from me.

I tried that once but the dog bit me.

 Quote:

And you do have to see training to understand it, I don't care if other trainers call it something, everybody does their thing differently

Put 100 trainers together on a field and watch each of them work. There will be no One person that does things differently to the other 99. There will be huge overlap everywhere. Dog training is not rocket science, and while each person may have a little change here and there, that is personal style, but not an overhaul of the general training concepts. I guarantee you, whatever it is you think you do that is special and unique and "the way it should be done," I have seen it, and it's not that unique.

So really, it doesn't matter what you call it. And honestly, I don't really care. I have no desire to change how you do things, just to point out that other people might want to go a different route.

I'm wondering what happened to the whole 'bonding with your puppy' thing for the first few months? Establishing pack structure and respect through fun and positive learning HAS to be the best way. Yes, it make take longer, but IMHO it's worth it.

I'm not saying that some dogs won't need a prong at 4 1/2 months, but it's only a few - and after the other methods stop being successful. We got to a point with Teagan when her behaviour exceeded the corrections she was getting on a flat collar and she started to get unruly. THEN we stepped up to a prong (at about 15 months), but using the same methods as on a flat collar.

Personally, I'd be concerned over the apparent hypocracy of an instructor training my dog in a way they won't train their own.

Anyway - whatever technique you decide to use, it's all about confidence, timing and practice!

 Quote: matt wyrick

 Quote: katie o'connor

Have you ever shaped an exercise from start to finish -- for example a retrieve -- with marker training?

I can't understand how that would require no skill but compulsion training it would???

Katie

How would you shape an exercise from start to finish using compulsion? I can't figure how you'd do that in the first place.

I'm not asking how to shape it using compulsion. I am asking if Jennifer has ever shaped an exercise like a retrieve with marker training. She seems to think that takes "no skill" but compulsion training it would.

Katie

 Quote: Matt Wyrick

What I don't understand is that since marker training is so easy to grasp, why don't you teach it to your clients. I'd be much more impressed with a trainer that teaches me how to train my dog instead of them just doing it for me and handing me the leash when it's over. That would be like a lesson that keeps on working.

Quick answer: Lost revenue. If clients can do it themselves why would they need a trainer? :wink: