I am aware there are KNPV breeders and then there is eveyone else! Here in the USA though, the Dutchie is popular only as a work dog, and is not known to the general public. The Mali in the USA is also primarily a work dog although the Westminster entry made me think it won't be this way for long if you guys don't start protecting your breed from the general public and unscrupulous breeders looking to do to Malis what has been done to GSDs.

One more thing with regards to what a GSD is SUPPOSED to look like: Jennifer, I don't know how long you have been involved with GSDs or how much of the history you have studied, but modern show line GSD is actually the departure, not the working line dog. As a matter of fact, the working line dog and the Malinois bear a striking resemblance to the Colonels ideal dog, the show line - not so much.

Susan,
i am new to GSD's for owning one, prior to owning one i was familar with many growing up (late 60's, early 70's), but they were std black and tan ones--similar in appearance to the German SL dogs i see today. they didnt look like Mals at all.

i am only now just learning about all the changes made to them. i understand the stupid American influence completely, but what caused the breed to fork so significantly in Germany, where i always thought they knew better? when did they really split into 2 distinct types? i thought the conformation shows in Germany included some meaningful temperment evals too---not just physical attributes?

also, my Q's about SchH changes---i would love somebody to explain please: what chnages were made to the tests, by whom and why? when i was doing it back in the late 80's there was a gun shot (at least at club practice) and the wall. i had no idea it was changed (dumbed down) but if so many people are against it, who decided to do it? i agree it should have stayed a tough thing to achieve. are there really owners who want it wussed down so they can title?? it wasnt designed to be easy to pass.....

thank you for the info.

Steve wrote in part:
My only answer to that (and I am not her) is that she is a SL breeder, but, places high value in the working dog's ability and sees that there is a problem in the working ability of SL dogs

Well so do we all but how she chooses to solve that problem baffles me as the answer to that problem is already there, and it is breed only working line GSD’s. I mean no disrespect but what exactly do show line dogs bring to the breeding equation. Working temperament and character? No. Working conformation? No. A useable work ethic? No. So given that why would someone who wants to improve the breed choose blood lines, that are replete with the traits and behaviors that working breeders are aggressively breeding away from. Maybe a particular show line dog is OK but what about the many behind that particular dog, don’t they count?

Steve wrote in part:
How many of the WL GSD owners on here bought their dog because of the way it looks?

Too many but people shouldn’t buy working dogs like they buy art. That is look in a book and pick one that looks a certain way or believes because of the BS written about them they will act a certain way. I would think that far more pick show line dogs because of looks because that is why they are valued.

Steve wrote in part:
Of all the dogs produced how many are actually, truly, a "working dog"? I do not mean dogs competing in sports

If your speaking about GSD’s I would think you might be a bit low, IMO about three per-cent of the total of American and German but that percentage is misleading as I don’t consider the American style GSD a GSD. That said the actual GSD today is by far the most used service dog in the world and that includes but not limited to, detection dogs, K-9 dog both military and police worldwide, seeing eye dogs, herding/tending dog, SAR dogs and last but not least companion dogs. They have maintained there usability by only one way and that is breeding useful dogs only to other useful dog, there is no other way. Breeding a working dog to a show dog will not improve the breed’s viability, therefore why do it.

I am very happy to hear of the WDA’s improvement on how our breed is vetted and will go to the web site to find out more. Regards Norman

i had to back-track to read the earlier posts--

Susan, please understand that i am not defending any changes made, just trying to defend that not all SL dogs are w/o working ability. i didnt create them (tho they ARE here and can fulfill a niche!) and i dont have the same mindset of those that did. i own one, and i am happy wtih him. having come from Rotties and Aussies, he has been the smartest, most cooperative easiest dog to train in my life, and he has a LOT of prey-drive, super focus and a willing-to-please nature. i cant say if i had bought a WL puppy if i would be as happy or more or less. who knows. too late now.

i am not a breeder, but if i were i do NOT NOT NOT agree that dogs should be bred for conf only!! there is so much more important stuff to focus on, as a WHOLE picture, not just pieces of it.

i am working my SL dog. obed every day, hiking every evening (i have 20 wooded acres) and beginning bitewk at club meetings (3 hours away from me, so limited participation), and i meet with the K9 sherriff here and get help too. i have 3 Leerburg DVD's and will be going to a 3-day Flinks sem next month. my dog (6 mo. puppy)is not anything close to what has been described here as a typical SL dog. if most ARE that way, then that's sad. but there are always exceptions to that rule and breeders who strive to produce those exceptions.

i understand and respect there are many protective views on this list and i AGREE with those views, but its unfair to lump ALL sl dogs into the same category, thus alientating any new owners who just *might* be trying to do the right thing.

it may not be any consolation, but these "beauty pageant" changes have happened in nearly ALL breeds of dogs AND horses as well (you should see what they did to the QH for halter!). again--when judges award top honors to lousy examples of what the breed is SUPPOSED to be, that is encouragement to produce more of the same.

Jennifer wrote in part:
Norman, question: do you think the change of the GSD's original look is a bad thing? ---and i am not talking about soundness-based traits (like roached backs, overly long backs and too much rear angulation, narrowness), i mean just the general LOOK of one that is structurally/functionally put together correctly. *should* they have stayed looking the old way? are WL breeders trying to return to that look?

Your question has me a bit confused. That said yes I think the change in the original GSD’s conformation is a bad thing, a very bad thing. However I don’t see how you can exclude roached backs, and angulation issues as those conformation traits play a large part in the orthopedic problems we see in the GSD today e.g., spinal problems, elbow problems and HD issues that still remain with us even though we have had mandatory x-rays for forty years. The Malinois has few of those issues and one of the reasons is they have not changed their conformation to satisfy their show community because they have no show community to speak of, and I am talking about the German style GSD.

Jennifer wrote in part:
in Aussies, some breeders tried to cross the WL w/the SL lines and they often times ended up with pups that really were neither. minimal herding instinct and not pretty or sound either. if GSD breeders are having success with crossing them, then good. what could be better than a mentally sound, sane, confident, capable, structurally correct & also *lovely* dog working?

If the Aussies breeders have had little success using show lines to improve their breed then why do you think that the GSD breeders results would be any different. I have seen little success, by way of viability, in crossing any working breed to its show line counterpart. Just go to any active working Lab breeder that is actually working is dog and ask him or her if they would mind letting you use your male show line Lab to cover his working bitch and get ready to run and I hope you are fast (g).

Norman,
so lets spay and neuter ALL the SL dogs, right here and now. or would you prefer just euthanizing them? you apparently see ZERO value in them for any purpose whatsoever (oh, except couch potato duties)...

sorry to be harsh, but the siutation is what it is. it didnt happen overnight. if you are not happy about the direction the breed has taken, then wk to change it. but maybe slamming every SL dog, breeder, owner, judge, trial, event & show is not so productive. educating judges, the puppy-buying public, getting exposure to WL dogs--those are positive routes.

my point about changes made was that there appear to be many physical-appearance changes that would not be soundess-based changes: heads are diff, color, bone, overall general appearance, maybe diff in coat---etc.

as for crossing lines: i was responding to another person's post regarding one breeder's success with crossing the 2 lines. you are really negative about all this. i respect your passion for what you believe, but there are other versions of "right" that might deserve some respect too.
however, just b/c the crossing didnt wk so well in aussies doesnt mean it woudl necessarily fail in GSD's. i wasnt saying it would or wouldnt, just commenting on that same effort in Aussies, but being *hopeful* for better results in GSD's and also acknowledging that apparently with that particular breeder mentioned in a post, it IS working.

basically you are saying that SL dogs have unilaterally and totally nothing to contribute to the gene pool (**IYO**). that opinion makes my above sarcastic comment about spaying neutering probably not sound so ridiculous to you.

if anyone woudl be willing to tell me about the changes made to SchH rules/trials, pleae do so. or if there is a book that could yield the info----i am trying to learn.

thx.

Actually spaying and neutering ALL showlines dogs would help the breed.

I'm not trying to get anyone mad but it's true. My working lines pup is good in the house etc, if someone wants a dog that has lower drives get a golden, they're nice dogs!

Jennifer, even though I own German SLs, I am the first to stand up and say the dog has more faults than it should. IMO, the majority of the show line dogs that are bred, should not be. It really does disgust me and sadden me that a color of GSD is associated with bad working ability, bad temperament, bad health, and bad character. It is a GSD and in being so it SHOULD have ALL the traits it was intended to have and originally bred for. Thankfully, there are a few breeders out here who see this and are working to correct what has taken generations to destroy. Additionally, there are still a few lines out here that do have the solid nerve, working ability, good health, and strong drive and SHOULD be used in breeding programs. Can the "strain" of GSD known as the German Show Line, recover from the travesty forced upon the masses by the Brothers Martin? probably not. But that doesn't mean a few of us won't try to search out those exceptions, train them, trial them, and PROVE them, right along side the working line dogs!

I would NEVER presume to speak for Maggie Van Dorssen, as I have entirely TOO much respect for her. However, I will say, that Maggie has always bred dogs that could work. The upside for those who liked pretty dogs is that her's, more than most have good conformation and health. I happen to own several dogs from Arlett lines, and they are really the only reason, I continue to have German SLs. The mother line on my female Gipsi (I also had her mother, and I still have an older sister) is very strong. There is actually some VERY nice workinglines back there before the split.

I really can appreciate the opinions, ideas and thoughts of others. I am always amazed at how close I am to crossing over to the dark side again with a working line dog.

I am also really happy with the discussion that has occurred here. It is nice to be able to converse, debate, listen, understand and contribute to a discussion that does not evolve into name calling because we disagree on a subject.