Quote: Pat Raynes

Is playing tug with a young dog a bad idea if its not going to be SCH trained? I've read so much conflicting information about this that I'm hesitant to play tug with mine.

Hi Pat,
First of all, I am sorry to read about your female; that must have been an awful thing to discover.
I am not an experienced dog trainer, so you can take what I say w/ a grain of salt...
If you have good pack structure in place, tugging is great. It's a fun way to motivate your dog, and I think it's good for bond-building.
Saying that, if you are having problems with your dog respecting you, you need to work on pack structure before doing much tugging.
I am speaking from experience on that regard. When my pup hit 6 months, her prey drive really kicked in, and tugging became too intense; my lack of skills as a handler, and underlying pack structure issues contributed(I think). So we quit tugging for several months...
As I worked on pack structure, I became more confident as a handler, and my pup picked up on that.
We tug every day now; it's an integral part of how we play together...

 Quote: pat raynes

Now that I think about it that does make sense to wait due to growth hormones and all that. Some hormones are secreted from their kidneys just like ours are but not enough.It would be like altering a human child at an early age I guess even though I've never heard of a child having reproductive surgery. I wonder just how much altering a pup at an early age would affect their skeletal developement,or if it could possibly be a reason for so many dogs developing hip dysplasia? Something to think about for sure !!

Many many years ago they would castrate boy opera singers to preserve their voices and create what was called a "castrato" (sp?). Of course this practice died out hundreds of years ago. What medical problems resulted from this is unknown. Back when the practice was widespread the medical community still believed in demons and bleeding with leeches.

 Quote: pat raynes

What I'm curious about is this "alpha rolling" business.I'd like to know how that ever got started in the first place and the reasoning behind it for it just sounds stupid and cruel to me.Seems like that would really make a dog agressive.
Is playing tug with a young dog a bad idea if its not going to be SCH trained? I've read so much conflicting information about this that I'm hesitant to play tug with mine.

The practice of alpha rolling comes from a book by the Monks of New Skeet I believe. They wrote a book based on observations of captive unrelated wolves. It was the book that ushered in the pack view of training and raising dogs.

Over time the monks revised their practices eliminating the alpha roll and other things in the original book. Most modern trainers feel that alpha rolling is a dangerous practice. Also the original study of the captive wolves was flawed since it drew it's observations from captive non related wolves. In a real wolf pack rolling over to expose the belly area is an offered behavior. It's like saying, "I'm no threat". Any dog who will let you alpha roll it doesn't need it and any dog who needs it wouldn't let you alpha roll it without a fight and in that case you as a human are in a very vulnerable position.

Caesar Milan still uses an alpha roll but he's been widely criticized for that. Also you have to remember that CM is working with dogs that other people have raised. If you have done your pack structure training properly there should be no need to alpha roll a dog. It should already see you as pack leader without all the drama.

I've never had a problem playing tug. Once again if you have done the pack structure properly the dog should see you as leader and any games like tug will be played in accordance with your rules. When playing with Molly I watch her carefully. If she is getting over stimulated I give her an, "out" command and we take a break. Done this way I don't see a problem with playing tug. Actually some dogs are more toy motivated than food motivated so tug can sometimes be used as a reward in training.

I used to alpha roll. I stopped doing it about eight years ago because it was more trouble than it was worth.

Lynne, I'm real new at this dog training and I'm lucky to have really good dogs that so far have been easy to work with.Since they give up their toys easily I'll see how they do at playing tug.Many thanks for your advice.

Matt, thank you so much for the info on alpha rolling. I was curious as to how that training method originated and why some ppl still use it today,it seems like it would not only be dangerous but that it would build resentment in a dog.

Scott,if you don't mind me asking, do you see a difference in your dog's temperment and your relationship with your dogs after you stopped alpha rolling them? There is a security officer that works at the hospital where I do and he says he alpha rolls his dogs all the time and swears by it. He also trains for ppl.
If he trains his own dogs this way, I bet he does it with other ppl's dogs to.Being a nurse I've seen some dog bites and this bothers me a great deal espeically since he trains for the public. Are these ppl that takes their dogs to him for training in danger of getting bitten? Are they going to be agressive towards their owners?

I have made it clear many times - more than I can remember - that Alpha Rolling a dog is dangerous and stupid. Its a perfect way to get dog bit - in the FACE !!!

Because it is so dangerous there will be not posts on this board about the benefits of this type of training. Ceasar does it - in my opinion it's a mistake to let viewers think this is how to deal with dangerous or aggressive dogs.

I also want to say that the Monks of New Skeet were not the people who started the concept of pack structure or Alpha Rolls. Sorry but this is silly. The Monks of new Skeet have a lot to learn about training dogs - they need to stick to religion and not dog training. The two issues have nothing in common.

BTW, Pat - the security officer where you work is a fool who lacks experience. Please pass this on. He has no relationship with his dog and if he thinks that Alpha Rolling the dog solves anything he has a lot to learn. He may have gone to a 6-week trainer's course but he never learned how to establish a relationship with a working dog.

Ed Frawley

Thank you Ed for the info.I wish I could befriend him but our first meeting didn't go very well,for I had read your articles on dog agression,I was just curious as to why some trainers alpha rolled and how it got started.Anyway,being a novice I insulted him b/c I told him it sounded stupid and dangerous.
I'll try to make amends and see if I can get him to atleast visit your site.I don't know if he trains working dogs only or does obedience training or both. If ppl take their dogs to him for training are they in danger of their dogs turning on them if he alpha rolls their dogs? That's what really bothers me,that their dogs may become handler agressive b/c of him.

In short, yes.

Yeah, that's the benifit I saw from not doing it anymore. I stopped having to fight with my dog and as a result he started to respect my position as pack leader. But I still did the yank 'n' crank method of training pretty much until I discovered Leerburg a few months ago. Even since I adopted Ed's methods of training my bond with my Rasta is better than it's ever been (he's 13 years old).