Catherine,

Thank God your going to stop posting, finally your making sense.

Catherine,

The e-collar is for amateurs and weak "trainers" who lack the ability and motivation to establish a bond, communication and understanding with their dog.

Many years ago man mastered the fine are of communicating with their dogs. Remember that a dog is the only animal that will leave its own kind to be at man's side. These people who consider themselves experts are ignorant of this and much more.

They should have electrodes connected to sensitive parts of their bodies and given a test. Every time they are wrong they should be given a shock, how about a level 3 Lou?

Catherine, let the blind lead the blind and pity these fools.

Ralph Scott

P.S. Hey all, don't forget to rate me.

I have held my tongue on this subject but this fighting has got to stop. I also disagree with the use of the shock collar as it affects the dog's central nervous system. It breaks the dog into submission as it drives him into so much torment and fear that he has nothing else to do BUT obey. The shock collar can be set off by mobile phones and other devices. Did anyone ever hear about the Arkansas State Police dog that went out of control while he was wearing a shock collar and attacked an officer? He got killed by the officer while his handler was outside shouting commands and futilely shocking the dog to get him to down. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so let's not get into a knock down and drag out fight. Just a lot of us prefer to not use this piece of equipment.

Ah, geez Ed, it appears we have quite a feud going on here. However, I guess only those of us with the 1-star ratings have posts removed? I can't see any training points being made by Abby or Sharon g. on bashing Catherine, yet their posts still remain. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I really didn't mean to bash anyone, and I apologize.

Look, there is plenty of "bashing" going on to the people who do use the E collar who have been polite in their responses on why they use them. It doesn't matter that you don't or they do. Bill you started the question. If you didn't want their responses then you shouldn't have asked the question. No one is bashing you because you DON'T use one only that you accuse others of being cruel because they do. Unless you have seen one of the other members train with one or seen their dog you can hardly make that judgement. If you are a novice get more facts and information before "bashing" something you've never tried.

First off, to set the record straight. This is CRC, RDC's spouse. Normally I do not read nor reply to these sites. But after sitting here for over an hour and reading thru all of these postings over the last couple of days, I felt compelled to respond. I definitely believe in freedom of speech. But with that freedom comes responsibility. After sorting thru most of the personal attacks, snide remarks, insults, put-downs, & holier-than-thou soapbox speechs. (when getting down, please watch your step, that first one seems to be pretty high). I did happen to find some very solid advice in this so called educational discussion. Lou, I commend you, your responses have been impartial, non-judgemental & informative as well as leaving the impression that you know there are still many things for you to learn. And at least one person had the grace to apologize. Before I met RDC I didn't even know how to get a dog to sit!!!! Let alone being able to take our GS to protection training one nite & to our local hospital the next nite for pet therapy. One of the ongoing arguments I read tonite was the dogs ability (or lack thereof) to distinguish between different types of collars. I can only speak from personal experience, but my GS "knows"
the difference between his protection collar,
(he gets very serious), his short leash & hosp. badge,(he becomes a ham), & his harness for pulling his wagon, (he becomes very calm & patient). In my humble opinion dogs are very smart & intuitive. When I was first learning how to train. The dog RDC gave me to work with was our first GS.(He had already been trained by RDC). I quickly
realized that I was not training the dog he was training me. I recall one instance where I was working him in a parking lot not far from the house. Next to the lot was an apartment complex where 3 guys were sitting on the block wall & watching. Soon the catcalls started I ignored them & put the dog on a down stay & walked halfway across the parking lot. When I turned back to the dog he suddenly got up & started walking towards me. No matter how many times I gave him the command to sit, stay, lie down whatever he kept coming, walked right past me & sat down. When I turned around I discovered that one of the guys was walking towards me. One common thread I saw in reading the postings tonite is something that I believe 99% of the populace goes thru, (I know I am guilty) & that is... give someone a little bit of knowledge & they suddenly become experts. If you truly desired to learn by asking questions on this site. I would think that argueing every single piece of advice or opinion given demonstrates to me that obviously you already know everthing there is to know about training dogs so why are you wasteing your time? Although I must admit it was entertaining. In fact the reason I read the postings was the comment "you have got to read these, it's better than Jerry Springer"!! I have always been of the opinion that e-collars were cruel & abusive & some of the dogs I have seen at the protection trials have backed that up. These dogs were clinging to thier handlers & so intently focused on thier faces that they would not even see the aggitators. I don't recall any of these dogs wagging thier tails. BUT... I did read some very good points tonite & can see that the collars were not at fault, thier owners were. And utilizeing a training tool in a judicious manner does have it's advantages. One of the reasons we have so many different training tools & methods available is that someone thru trial & error found an effective way to teach something to thier dog with the least amount of stress and fustration to themselves & thier dog. A "GOOD" trainer knows that the training method should be tailored to that specific dogs' needs & personality. Anyway, To Quote.. That's just my opinion I could be wrong.

RDC, you said that Lou Castle had the only responses that did not "bash anyone". I beg to differ. In my post, I did not downgrade anyone, nor did I call anyone names because they choose to use this method. I merely stated my opinion based upon research. I also asked for the fighting to end. I personally do not condone this method of training, but I am not going to call someone any names merely because they do choose this method.

Norstar1,
Just read your post that the e-collar causes problems to a dogs central nervous system. What reach have you found that shows this? For those that use an e-collar on a regular basis, this would be quite interesting for them to review.

This article is rather offbeat to some mainstream trainers, but here is where I got the information. http://www.thedogmen.com/ecollars.htm<br />The following is a direct quote from the article:
"The use of electric shock in training working, sporting or competition dogs should be banished. The electric shock effects the central nervous system. You can never train any creature with shock, but you can break them into submission. When a dog bites harder under electric shock, this means the dog is driven into a frenzy. He is biting as a lone figure, without a handler, driven into a madness that makes him bite harder. If you believe there is any benefit in an electric collar, put it around your neck, start to perform a task, let someone else hit the button when you are not doing it correctly or fast enough. See how your mind starts to work as you anticipate the next shock. I have heard of other trainers who put it around people's necks to demonstrate it's not a big deal. I guarantee you if I use it on you, as they use it on the dogs, it will be a big deal."