Catherine only comes here to challenge and push buttons. She has already set her mind on a particular training philosophy, probably something she stumbled across on the internet or read about or was told about by someone else. She learned of this philosophy, and it sounds good to her, so this is what she's doing. She does not come her to learn anything, she has already decided what she thinks. This is probably her first dog, and she is basing what she thinks on someone else's philosophy, not her own real world experience. If the philosophy she is so hung up on is so effective, then it would be common knowledge. That's OK, because 20 years down the road when she has trained more than one dog, she will learn that dog training has developed based upon what is known to actually work, not just what sounds good.

Jparker:

Nice posts.

Catherine,

Then what does she view you as if not a pack member?

This isn't my first dog. Although I can see why you'd think that because I don't use some of the common knowledge methods. I'm not disputing its effective in training a dog through conventional methods. But just because most people use them it doesn't mean its the best or only way. I've seen so many dogs that people describe as being happy and focused on the handler, when in reality the dog is waiting for a toy or treat. What kind of communication is that? If you need to kennel your dog and/or make it bored so it will think you're more interesting, or rely on food and toys, I have to question the training philosophy. If its a sport dog and this needs to be done it suggests that either the sport has gone beyond being useful to the breed or there may be either a problem with the dog or with the handler.

If a male dominant dog is trying to be #1 among humans, why is that pack drive? I'm not trying to be contentious here. Do you really believe a dog sees a human as part of its pack?

Do people really have better bonds with their dogs today than in the past? Particularly working dogs?

Yes, absolutely. When a dog has a confident handler and knows it's place it is content.
When there are no clear expectations and no clear training, and the dog is allowed to get away with undesirable behaviour, you have a problem. In the 'real' doggie world there is a hierarchy. Dogs want to know their place or they WILL take "alpha". Have you never heard of survival of the fittest?
This is NOT a theory it is fact. Dogs are pack animals. They don't do well as a single entity. I believe that you are assuming that your dogs have human emotions (correct me if I'm wrong). If your dog were to transfer homes, the bonding would take time, but the real challenge would be where he sits in the pack order in his next home. Once that is established, I'm afraid that he wouldn't miss you. If you were imprinted on him as a puppy, he would recognise you and greet you. You have heard of the lap dog that will sit on the couch and growl if a stranger approaches. "poor fifi" Try dealing with a dominant dobe or GSD in the same situation. I don't know the type of dog, or the personality of your dog. Clearly you are closed to tried and true information, offered generously (without reimbursement by the way) from those with experience. You also seem unable to accept other's comments and knowledge. I have to ask, why then do you write on this list? It is my understanding that the list is intended to help those who wish assistance, and share information. Rather than running down what most of us know to be true, why not explain your understanding. It may all just be an issue of semantics. JMO

Catherine,

You are serious when you ask "Do you really think a dog sees a human as part of his pack?" How many dogs did you say you have trained? I cannot believe that you say these things for any more reason than to push buttons. Listen to Pete. There is a hell of a lot of experienced people posting here. Yes, you are very entitled to your opinions.
But again, if the dog dosen't see you as a pack member than what exactly does he see you as? It is ridiculous to even dispute that a dog views its handler as his "pack leader" I find myself getting ticked at myself for even taking the bait and addressing this. Chalk up another one for Catherine.

Catherine,
I've been reading this post as a lurker for a while and would like to hear Catherine's theory if she does not believe in "drive." How does she train? What tools does she use to train with? What do you use as a reward system? Do you have a reward system? If the dog does not associate you with "pack" or in "rank" how do you feel they associate you? I'm not trying to be nasty, please don't take it this way. I am curious what you feel, what you train and why you feel this way. I hope perhaps this would give you a chance to voice your opinions on how you do things. Perhaps they have some validity. I only ask to know

Really, I'm not trying to bait anyone. I think about everything I read and constantly evaluate what I do. Rather than answering questions, I've seen other people's posts answered with arrogance, ridicule and sarcasm if they dared dispute anything - some have a nicer way of insulting than others but are still condescending. Its really quite illuminating.

If I'd trained 1000 dogs would that mean that what I thought might have some validity? Or would I still be another crackpot because I didn't agree with the mainstream? Whats the magic number? How many years? Should I write some books? How long do I have to observe dog or other predator behavior? Should I get another degree? Doesn't matter what I say, it will always be deficient because I don't agree.

I don't project human emotions onto dogs and I don't fool myself into thinking that either one of my dogs wouldn't bond with someone else. But I don't think it has anything to do with a pack order. I don't think its that simple and it doesn't begin to explain the bond dogs have with humans. More often than not, pack members will not lay down their lives for another. A human is not a dog and a dog knows this. A dog will view its handler as its leader and partner. Thats not the same as being alpha in a pack. Would a wolf see a human as part of its pack? A lion as part of its pride? A monkey as part of its troup? Etc, etc. No.

Someone once told me that dogs will behave in accordance with human beliefs and desires. I have found this to be true - in hindsight as well. I don't treat either of my dogs differently - I feed either one first, don't care if they go through a door first, if they ask to be pet I don't make them sit first (but I don't allow them to be pushy about it). I have a Dutch Shepherd and a Malinois. I have also taken care of Rottweillers and GSDs in the same manner. I'm not saying I'm an expert, its just simply worked for me.

The tried and true thinking you're speaking of is just ONE way - a way that I used to believe in yet now find less truth in the more I examine it and see it in action.

I guess the answer to my questions is no.

Even if a dog knows that a person is a person and not a dog, do you then think that the dog understands human behavior? Do you think that when a puppy is taken away from his mother and sibblings at 8 weeks, it realizes "oh gee, I'm with humans now, they don't live in packs". Years and years of genetics gone in a couple of minutes? Dogs are pack animals and it is un-realistic to think that we as humans can turn this off at the snap of a finger.

As for your opinions, I find you to be well-spoken. The tone of the board can get a little harsh at times, but I think that its because of the wealth of experience that many people have(not speaking of myself as I am no where near in some of their leagues). Its hard to swallow what you say when it goes against time tested beliefs that have been substanciated. I do appreciate your opinions and do not intend to be rude in any way. I will just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Catherine,
The issue surrounding the ideas of the "Alpha figure", heirarchical social structure, and pack drive that you bring up is one that I have been aware of for some time, and have thought a lot about it, and I've come to the conclusion that it is nothing more than semantics.

I think it's fairly obvious that dogs don't think humans are dogs and that they can and do distinguish between species. That is not in dispute.

Yes, the dog does look to its handler for leadership. Call it "Alpha" or call it some mystical bond that can't possibly be understood, but it boils down to the fact that the dog needs leadership; that the dog's world view is heirarchical. Watch two dogs (not wolves, but dogs) interact. Even down to very basic play, there is heirarchy at work. It's plain to see. Of course my dogs see me as their leader, and of course, they know I'm not a dog. I don't have to be a dog or even act like a dog to earn their respect, nor to earn their love.

The idea of whether or not dogs think of people as dogs, and whether or not dogs need leadership are two separate issues that should not be simplified into one polarized argument. They are separate issues.

The practice of making a dog sit before petting and such things as going through doorways first is for dominant dogs, or dogs that are still learning their place in the order of things. If your dogs already see you as the leader, then you don't have any dominance issues, so naturally, you would handle them accordingly. Generally speaking we see dominance issues when people spoil or pamper their dogs to the extreme, or in many cases, when the dog's temperament is such that he or she has a very strong will to power (I'm sure many here can attest to that one!). In those cases, it is very important to show the dog that you are in charge simply by asking him to earn his keep, rather than being his servant who provides for all of his needs without asking anything in return. Naturally, I think that there is a happy medium in there, and that is the best case scenario, like a symbiotic relationship where you each give and take to and from one another. But even in that case, the dog benefits from strong, confident leadership, not domination, and not servitude, regardless of whether or not he thinks you're a dog or a human.

To say that a dog considers you as a pack member is not the same as saying the dog thinks you're a dog. It simply refers to the way that dogs view the world, with its family, or social group, as its pack, and within that social group, there is a heirarchy.

But I digress. The question here is, if you disagree with conventional methods, how exactly do you train your dogs? Instead of posing questions all the time and stating what you disagree with, why don't you enlighten us all and share with us what you do, specifically, that makes your training different?