Quote: SteveZorn

.... The other point that I will make about those who decry Schutzhund is that I have yet to meet a person that has actually taken the time to title a dog that thinks that it is ridiculous. I have met people that have titled a dog, or dogs, that no longer train and compete because they do not have the drive, desire, time, or physical ability to do so. Maybe they even don’t like the direction Schuthund has gone, but, I never hear any of these people bad mouthing those who do train and compete. It isn’t that tough to put a Schutzhund 1 title on a dog. .... The issue lies with the human. It takes dedication, time and effort to put a title on a dog. Tracking every day, sometimes three times a day can suck, but, the results, regardless of points, are usually quite rewarding. .... When you don’t want to put in the effort it becomes very easy to speak negatively about any activity. ....

Just as in so much else of life ..... good reminder of how easy it is to dismiss something that I/we have not/cannot/will not do ....

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I agree, wholeheartedly Geoff.
Ring has stayed truer to it's roots that Schutzhund has.
And Mondio Ring has upped the ante even more.

Ultimately, I think Mondio Ring is the future of all dog sports (at least, I hope so... they've taken everything GOOD about all the disciplines, discarded to extraneous BS, and created the perfect sport, IMO.)

Well I don't know enough about Mondio as Mondio is non existent in my neck of the woods. I'd be willing to check it out if it was available here. The only thing I know is that there is less opposition from the decoy and more environmental stress. Though I've been reading the French Ring Decoy handbook and have been very impressed on how the rules are skewed in favour for the dog. Lots of people see brutal decoying by certain decoys and dismiss the sport. But if the decoy rule book was followed to a 'T' by the judge that stuff wouldn't happen. I was actually surprised and very impressed by the NARA decoy handbook for laying down rules to keep the dogs safe. I won't say nothing else that I find French Ring very exciting to train and trial and if there is a club close to anyone who reads this you should check it out. Not dismiss it.

 Quote:

What has always bothered me about Ring is the quality of the bite.
The dog just has to get a piece of the decoy and hang on.
I would like to see more emphasis placed on the depth and quality of the grip.
Countering and shaking the crap out of the decoy? Good.
Not actually biting the decoy, only the suit? Bad, IMO.

Well .. I don't know who you were training with. But in both clubs that I train with we train for full deep grips. Just because the rules say what a bite is for 'points' purposes, doesn't mean that is what we train for. There is to many variables in Ring to just put the emphasis on a deep grip. i.e. Movement of the decoy, what is available to the dog to grip at 30kmh, etc etc. See in this pic my dog is coming in at full 'boost' 30kmh+ the decoy tries to esquive her and she snags what she can. As well in FR the dog doesn't get penalized if it pushes harder into the bite. (no change of grip) But would get penalized if the dog changes the grip position.

http://dbworld.s3.amazonaws.com/8965062_600.jpg

Awesome Post Steve!

 Quote: SteveZorn

Furthermore, carrying the sleeve, also, is meaningless. A dog is not tested on this, nor does it receive points for it in a trial. It is a training tool utilized, especially with younger dogs that are first learning bitework, in order to maintain control of the dog. It teaches the dog to think while doing bitework. It teaches the dog that it can bite something, grip it, and it does not have to be out of control in the process. It is nothing more than that if the dog is being trained correctly.

While I agree that Schutzhund is probably more of a sport now, its focus is on maintaining control of the dog. Look at the bitework, there is more obedience in that phase than there is actual biting.

All dogs come out of the womb knowing how to bite it is inate instinct. Even Jenni's Killer Chi! I feel in all bite oriented sports we are actually teaching the dog not to bite. Hence the tight obedience in all protection based sports.

 Quote:

While we are on the subject of Schutzhund being more of a sport, and highly point oriented, than a test, I think that only holds true for those who want to compete at the highest levels. Many are in it only as a hobby so that they can do something fun with their dog(s). It is no different than the person that does dock diving, agility, PSA, AKC Obedience, flyball, etc. If you are going to knock Schutzhund because it has evolved in to a sport then you should knock the others as well. While you’re at it, I hope that you hate what basketball has become also. I’m a former hockey player, so, I hate basketball anyway, but, basketball was invented by Dr. Naismith as a way to keep his football players in shape during the offseason. Poor Dr. Naismith must be turning in his grave because they started to keep score. The horror of it all!!!

Well I don't agree that I'd want to breed my bitch to a Male Malinois Flyball, agility or dock diving champion. Though possibly to a PSA one though. Majority of those sports are more of a fun thing to do with your dog. The don't have the history of SchH or Ringsport as a test for breed worthiness even though for the most part the dogs and bitches competing in those sports still have to be worthy .. big difference.

 Quote:

As for it being a test, I still think that this holds true more so than you think. Look at the majority of breeders. They send their dogs off to be titled by someone or buy one that is already titled. They only want the dog to pass “the test” so that they can prove that the dog is breed worthy. I am not only talking about show line breeders, but, also an abundance of, so called working dog breeders. None of these people really care what the dog’s scores are. They just want the title. Whether or not you feel that a Schutzhund, or other sport title, is a valid breedworthyness (I don’t think that is a word) test is up to the individual.

I see a lot of breeders will put a BH on their bitches and then breed the living crap out of them. They haven't even been proven to be able to work. So that is the test that is up to the individual? In the same breath it is flawed right from the get go. We traffic test a dog and go through a pattern and then the dog is good to go for breeding if they pass PENN Hip. Same thing for the conformation people. They get their perfectly combed and hairsprayed purdy dogs to prance in a ring and again if they pass PENN Hip breed the living crap out of them too.

 Quote:

If you have a better solution for testing the dogs please bring it forth. Most of what is heard from people that do not train and compete is complaints, but, offer no solutions.

Well I think there is lots of people who are trying new solutions to accurately test breeding stock. It depends again on the venue but something that brings the dog full circle back to its roots is what I'd agree with. GSDs as a Farm dog, Yorkshire Terriers as Ratters etc etc. That's why I do all sorts of stuff with my dog from Sheep Herding, Tracking, French Ring and the fact that she lives in my house with my family with a 5 and 7 year old is a testament to her soundness. But then I am not looking for the next brood bitch I'm just trying to be a responsible dog owner.

 Quote: Geoff Empey

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I agree, wholeheartedly Geoff.
Ring has stayed truer to it's roots that Schutzhund has.
And Mondio Ring has upped the ante even more.

Ultimately, I think Mondio Ring is the future of all dog sports (at least, I hope so... they've taken everything GOOD about all the disciplines, discarded to extraneous BS, and created the perfect sport, IMO.)

Well I don't know enough about Mondio as Mondio is non existent in my neck of the woods. I'd be willing to check it out if it was available here. The only thing I know is that there is less opposition from the decoy and more environmental stress. Though I've been reading the French Ring Decoy handbook and have been very impressed on how the rules are skewed in favour for the dog. Lots of people see brutal decoying by certain decoys and dismiss the sport. But if the decoy rule book was followed to a 'T' by the judge that stuff wouldn't happen. I was actually surprised and very impressed by the NARA decoy handbook for laying down rules to keep the dogs safe. I won't say nothing else that I find French Ring very exciting to train and trial and if there is a club close to anyone who reads this you should check it out. Not dismiss it.

 Quote:

What has always bothered me about Ring is the quality of the bite.
The dog just has to get a piece of the decoy and hang on.
I would like to see more emphasis placed on the depth and quality of the grip.
Countering and shaking the crap out of the decoy? Good.
Not actually biting the decoy, only the suit? Bad, IMO.

Well .. I don't know who you were training with. But in both clubs that I train with we train for full deep grips. Just because the rules say what a bite is for 'points' purposes, doesn't mean that is what we train for. There is to many variables in Ring to just put the emphasis on a deep grip. i.e. Movement of the decoy, what is available to the dog to grip at 30kmh, etc etc. See in this pic my dog is coming in at full 'boost' 30kmh+ the decoy tries to esquive her and she snags what she can. As well in FR the dog doesn't get penalized if it pushes harder into the bite. (no change of grip) But would get penalized if the dog changes the grip position.

http://dbworld.s3.amazonaws.com/8965062_600.jpg

Sounds like I would enjoy your club, were I close enough.

Please don't construe anything I've said as an attack on FR.
I respect the sport, and if there were quality decoys close enough to me, we'd be doing that, and not Schutzhund.

 Quote:

What I mean by NATURAL drives are drives that are in the dog to start with and you don't need a lot of training and "building" to bring out. I could bring out more prey in one or two of mine, if I tried/wanted to and rewarded them for it...but why not just work w/the dog's natural inclination and his/her style? Why reinvent the wheel? For points? For "flash"? Not my cup of tea.

You can't create what isn't there, but you can take something small and bring it out and encourage it to where I don't even think it's a "drive" per se as much as a learned behavior. Conditioning, if you will.

So by natural drive you mean genetic drive basically? Gottcha.

I do think you can encourgage development of certain drives by proper foundation training. You are not creating drive where there was not any genetics for it, more enhancing what is already there.

 Quote:

but why not just work w/the dog's natural inclination and his/her style? Why reinvent the wheel? For points? For "flash"? Not my cup of tea.

My computer blipped and I posted before I was done.

I'm training 4 dogs right now and although they are closely related (Parents and 15 month old offspring) I have to stop when I bring out the next dog to work and remind myself of which dog is by my side. I find I have to adjust my training in a lot ways to the dog. To his or his style as you put it.

I think almost everyone does that that trains multiple dogs. The only ones that don't go through dogs like crazy looking for that certain dog.

If not they wash the dog out move on.

What venue do you train in?

 Quote: Geoff Empey

But then I am not looking for the next brood bitch I'm just trying to be a responsible dog owner.

Well darn it, I guess I'll have to cancel the date I have set up for Sasha. Kidding!

Are you coming to our trial in Connecticut in a few weeks? I'd love to meet you and Sasha!

Betty, what I am saying by working w/the dog's natural inclination and style is different than you interpreted it. I guess I'm having a hard time articulating it. You are talking about working dogs in a different way toward the same goal, but altering your training style for the different dog. Correct?

I mean, if the dog doesn't have the natural inclination to excel at a certain sport, without conditioning to bite a certain way that genetics didn't tell him/her to bite, then I don't like pushing the dog to do that sport. Sure, you can take the dog, evaluate how to use what the dog has to meet the end goal (title), but I would rather not change the style (can't think of a better word-sorry) of the dog, period.

I think if someone has 4 different dogs w/different personalities and tendencies, then while adapting their training to each individual for a single goal (title in sport 'x') is certainly necessary and admirable (or else wash them out like you said), I would think training them in the venue that suits them better would be better.

This is where the issue of Sch. becoming a goal instead of a test comes up and rears its ugly head again. There are now great dogs who won't excel in Sch. because of the "add-ons" that have become the be-all, end-all of the sport. Instead of breeding DOGS and testing them w/Sch., we are breeding SCH. DOGS.

Longwinded as I may be, that's what I am trying to say, I guess.

I had this whole long post written last night that I was really happy with and I couldn't get it to post. Infuriating!

I am not training in any particular venue currently. I have dabbled in Sch. and a bit in FR, but have done more PP and obstacle/agility work than anything. I decided to drop the Sch. idea w/my older GSD, and go w/something that suits him better, which is PP. I could title him, and he'd do ok. Probably pretty good, but I'd rather do something he's better at than "pretty good." I worked my cousin's dog in FR for a bit, then she lost interest. He could've done very well, IMO.


Now onto Steve's post. I won't redo my whole post from last night (and it was a good one!), but I did want to clarify something about "dirty." I was the one who used the word, and what I mean by dirty and what Steve means by dirty are different. As he interprets it, he is correct that it is a control issue, if you are training for sport. As I used it, I meant a dog who will do what it takes to win the fight, by evaluating and acting accordingly. I do not believe for one second that a dog does not know the difference between the sleeve and tender flesh. I don't mean nipping, like Steve brought up, I mean going in a full-fledged attack of the part that will do the most damage and result in the victory of the dog, regardless of whether the attacker is wearing a sleeve or not.

Control is key, of course. But IMO, control comes in during the 99.9% of the time when the dog is just living daily life. A good PPD should be stable, and under control, and able to be anywhere w/out being a liability. I think the word control should only be used to describe something that has been attempted to be taught to the dog, and he/she is not doing it. If you have never tried to encourage a single, full calm grip, then it's not a control issue if your dog doesn't always do it. How about a dog who switches arms or legs with a "reverse" command? This dog is clearly still under control, wouldn't you say? Just pointing out that different tactics and different dogs are not always control issues.

As to the liabilty....IMO, a PPD should only be used in a real life or death situation. I don't mean allowing/encouraging a dog to alert and scare someone off; I mean actually turning him/her loose on someone. This is another point where control comes in. He MUST NOT bite until told or until the handler is unable to command him to do so due to physical injury. Once this line is crossed, you need to be ready to accept any resulting consequences. This is how I feel, anyway.

I personally do not care if my dog tore someone limb from limb in a real situation where my life or my child's life was in true, actual danger. I will deal w/the consequences later, because I will still be alive to do so (hopefully). Besides, the pieces would make it easier for me to bury the S.O.B. I'm kind of small.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Instead of breeding DOGS and testing them w/Sch., we are breeding SCH. DOGS.

*applause*

 Quote: Konnie Hein

Well darn it, I guess I'll have to cancel the date I have set up for Sasha. Kidding!

Are you coming to our trial in Connecticut in a few weeks? I'd love to meet you and Sasha!

Hey we are looking for a stud! Konnie there is a few that my breeder is looking at for her. Me I want to think outside the box and have the breeder considering a PSD, an extensively titled Ring dog and a not so extensively title Ring dog. (but I like him) I'd have her consider a SAR or good detection dog too if I had a good feeling about the dog.

As for the Trial I maybe snookered for this one. My band has booked a gig months ago and I have no one to sub for me. Our Club Prez has asked Christine if I can compete level 1 on the Sunday we haven't heard back on it yet, if not I'm done for that weekend. As I think it was going to be a great trial for us, Sasha is on a real up and up with her training and is really starting to get it. Our team is getting into a great rhythm on the field too. It would be a shame to miss it, plus Jason and Bryan said they knew where good American cold beer was!

I'm for sure going to the one in the fall though. The Eastern Championship (Selectif)