Hasley wrote: "An explanation in detail is required for beginners and many don?t mind reading I think."

Ahhh. . .yea

Direct me to the portions of your novel where you explain teaching eye contact, which is what you were talking around about.

I didn't paraphrase dude, I posted the punchline.

Or you could answer my question about how you teach eye contact and lead that into how it applies to heeling.

I just want to talk about training specifics. I think that is more beneficial to novices, of which I am one, so I know what I'm talking about.

It seems we are in agreement about never presenting the reward until the dog offers eye contact. It is an easy and logical concept that is seldom practiced. Take look around the next time you look at the training methods being preached as gospel. You will be hard pressed to find the reward offered in this way.

Why so many words? Because like much of the information set on the field there are few who seem to understand the most basic of concepts. Trainers will dismiss a variation of an idea becuase they cannot get passed the fact they have been missing the point all this time. It is a normal behavior I guess since they they are veteran trainers and ordained as knowledgeable.

You write as if the idea of rewarding the dog only when eye contact is sustained is a generally practiced technique. It is not.

So here you are.

Our first goal in training is to teach our young puppy or old dog about rewards. We want to pair a voice command “Yes” or “Good” with a treat that the animal really likes. So go find a handful of tasty SOFT and Chewy treats you know your dog will dance for. I often use unseasoned cooked meat or a store dog food product that is very pliable.

Simply wait for your dog to look at you. Say in a well-toned and exciting way “Yes” or “Good” and toss a treat down to your dog or puppy. Your dog and family may think you have lost your mind but your dog will be thrilled about this mental mishap! ;-)

Your dog doesn't have to do anything. You simply want him to associate the sound of YES with the reward. Do this over and over until the dog begins to look for the treat when he hears you say YES. Your first lesson is over. Play with your dog.

This method encourages the animal to think or work things out for itself with the word "Yes" identifying the exact movement/moment/or desired behavior that we want it to do again. By teaching a reward marker we allow the animal to have the behavior shaped first before command or "cue" is added.

Repeat this lesson often. You can do it every day if you want. When you think your dog understands Yes = Yummy rewards, it is time to test him.

Test the Associative Praise Marker “Good or “Yes”

The next day you train your dog, have the treats ready and sit down on a chair. It is time to see if your dog has made the association between the sound “good” and a reward. When the dog is in the same room as you, but not focused on you, say, “good” and sees if he responds. Most dogs will come to you expecting a treat.

Only say the reward marker word (Yes or Good) ONE time. If your dog ignores your voice, repeat the first lesson. Test again a training session later.

More?

I guess Ive been looking over the obviouse for something new when the obviouse is what we were talking about all the time....Unless there is a difference in teaching a dog to focus(eyecontact)for extended periods of time will result in a reward coming from the area of focus is different from what you(Dennis) are saying a new concept, teaching the dog that if he stares at you he can make you give him the reward.(Im talking about hidden rewards)... It sounds like to me its just about as broad as it is wide.

Dennis, I think you should be more forthcoming in your claims about "people from the XYZ association" Be more specific. If you have a beef with a particular person's method, speak up, share with us dahling... Just so we are all on the same page as to who you are talking about.

Now, about that eye contact....

I will remind you that even a dog that is driven on eye contact can forge and be crooked, especially when the handler moves to looking straight ahead (which we have to do in a trial) because the dog can not make the eye contact from that angle. What do you do then? Or do you trial at all? I can see where that isn't going to be a problem if you can always look to the left. Honest question here....

A valid point Deanna

In order to maintain a clear mind and discipline we will want to incorporate some appropriate controls over his drive without diminishing it. It can be accomplished simply enough by teaching him the lack of reward paired with leash work produced 0 reward. (Aversive)

I teach correct position by incorporating a “OK” command and either “pat and play” or a small game of tug of war when the dog hits the mark of correct position thereby emphasizing “correctness”.

Though I am looking straight ahead, he is not allowed to crowd or come around. My head turning toward him will silently signal his chance to be rewarded. At first I reward every time keeping the sessions short and later on a varied schedule to maintain drive for the reward.

It think it is fine to require a level of common sense expect measured behaviors on your dog's part. Therefore, I will teach a “negative’ signal word to denote incorrect position or something is wrong and target correctness with a handsome reward.

To answer the question about organization XYZ it truly is generic. I have no beef with anyone I just like to study behavior. However I have traveled about listened and trained in many areas of study. I am not out to beat down or beat on my chest who in the dog world, AKC, Schutzhund, Russian Ring, PSA and so on, is the best or can be the best. Perhaps once I was intrigued about it but I have learned there are good people in all the sports. I find my reward in helping and trying to improve other peoples dogs, which I do. So my contention is with the status quo new folks are introduced to and no one person specifically.

Lee,Im not as good about explaining things on this board as I wish I could be.
When I first teach the focus,its all about the face thats where the reward will materialize.Looking at the face turns into extended periods of eyecontact that results in the reward.At this point while I have the dog locked in eyecontact I want his reward to originate from up high. Im talking about heeling and auto sits and focus.On a down the toy materializes between his two front paws when is elbows touch ground just like narc dog training.
Im not sayiny I want the dog staring at wherever the toy is hid.The reward is hidden,eyecontact,reward apears.If Im heelin or haults I sure dont want the dog thinking the reward might appear anywhere other than(up!)

Originally posted by david morris:
...If I'm heeling or halts I sure dont want the dog thinking the reward might appear anywhere other than(up!) IMO, you're limiting yourself in a way that you don't need to. You can teach a 6-wk old pup in about two minutes that looking at your hand by your side with the food in it won't earn the food, but looking up at you WILL earn it. They learn those associations very easily. It isn't necessary to constrain your reward system that way. Your reward can come from your jacket pocket, and the dog will still stare at your face, cuz every time he stares at your jacket, he doesn't earn anything. You can teach this specifically by having the dog (if it's old enough to expect this behavior yet) sit in front and ask for eye contact. Take your food/toy and hold it out to the side, at first very still and non-attractive. You may have to make small noises, say his name, etc. but when he finally glances at YOU, instantly reward. This progresses rapidly to major distractions with the food/toy and he won't look anywhere but at you cuz that's the trigger that makes you reward him.

Hey Lee,Im not in disagreement and I appreciate your opinion.I guess what Im thinking about is a dog of mine Im working with that has excellent focus and alot of drive.She is from great lines and I really enjoy her.My problem is when we heel she looks up,forward,up,forward you know.When we hault she is looking hard in my eyes.I wish she would heel that way.I see dogs that look like they have helium in their nose and I even train dogs in kennel for 2 weeks that stare in my face when heeling.But my female with more drive than any of them heels looking up,forward, up, forward.I guess Ive been overkilling the reward always being up high lately with her in an attempt to drive it home and improve that overall pitcure when she's heeling.Any suggestions?