Quote: Connie Sutherland

No, they do not.

No they certainly don't. And ethical breeders don't confuse minor conformation faults with health issues and don't put appearances before health and temperament. And yes I HAVE bred dogs, and that's why this thread has me so steamed.

I breed dogs because I love Dobermans. I love the way they move and look, I love their attitudes. I love that it's their nature to be cheeky little troublemakers. I love their devotion and protectiveness, and I love how intelligent they are, even when it's used against me. I love warm, grunting puppies and I love skunky puppy breath. I do it for love of the breed, and for no other reason.

To think of deliberately hurting one of these dogs by perpetuating health problems is so disrespectful and the idea so distasteful...I don't have words. It's tragic enough when you've done everything you can and something crops up...to know there's a problem and to breed anyway is just unconscionable.

My bitch IS healthy and is NOT negatively impacted by this particualr condition.
If the vet had told me that she would be blind in 6mo or a year then my decision would have been totally different. But I was told that this particular type of cataract never progresses to causing a problem. AND it hasn't. i had her checked again 4 yrs post diagnosis and the cataract had NOT changed at all, which I suspected because her vision was not compromised at all and still isn't.
This is possibly a condition that has been in the breed for hundreds of generations though there is NO way of knowing this for sure. It was never an issue because it never caused problems for the dogs that had it. Now that we have the technology to see it, it is suddenly a HUGE problem (at least with you guys). What other conditions are in our breeds (pick one) at this moment that have been around for hundreds of generations, that are not causing any health related problems (physical or otherwise)that we do not yet have the technology to see? Once we do, well there is another problem to eliminate more dogs from the gene pool. For something that has never caused a problem to begin with!

Dont' get me wrong I do NOT agree with breeding health issues that are detrimental to the health of the dog (such as Stryker's dysplasia)but this eye condition is NOT detrimental to the dog or any future generations. We would not even know it was there unless we looked for it. And not ALL breeders do the CERF. If I hadn't screened her eyes and was not honest about her condition we would not have had this gawd aweful day long discussion.

The fact that condition was NOT going to be detrimental to her weighed into my decision to breed her. She passed ALL of her other health clearances and had the balance, size and drive i was looking for. I weighed the good with the bad, and chose the male accordingly.

The dysplasia? I couldn't have done anything better or different to prevent it. GAWD only knows that I wish I could have. For all that he has gone thru and what I have spent (over $8000). And of COURSE he will NOT be bred. BUT he will have a better quality of life (he now has a bionic booty) and will go out and hopefully do agility and maybe dock diving.

As I hope you all can see breeding is many times a THANKLESS job.You do the best that you can and learn along the way. And of course take the SH%$ from many and the praises from others.

As for tonight, I am done. My back is killing me from sitting at this dang computer for so long.

And all I asked for was a simple addition and subtraction problem solved.

Darn.
Well I have a beautiful dog.
Hey, anyone out there have a equally beautiful male?
Wanted: good markings.

 Quote: Patti Neelans

One of the reasons I want this under control is I am not sure if I am keeping her. **I do not care for her markings per se. I kept her as she was the only female out of my last litter.**
I plan to breed her mother again this fall and if she can produce me a female more like Stryker in temperament and coloring (without the dysplasia of course) then I will likely re-home Flayre. Rogue had difficulty getting PG the first time and had low birth weight pups. Not sure what the cause of that was. If it happens again this time she will be spayed and not bred again.**Then that leaves Flayre as my only breeding female to my lines.**
So I want some kind of control instilled into her before she was placed. And of course I would place her in an experienced home only.

Come off your high horse Patti. How is anything in this response from the reactive dog thread ethical? Please note the sections I starred, you kept her because she was the only female but you don't really like her markings? Less than perfect markings are a hell of a lot more acceptable than cataracts!! Or did I miss something?

Yet even with your markings misgivings.....no problem with the nervous, reactive temperment? (your description). If things don't go well with her mother; she would become your lines only breeding female. And choosing to breed a substandard dog because she is your only female is ethical how?

 Quote: Patti Neelans

Yes ethical breeders DO breed health faults they can see..

Is this a typo? Did you mean unethical? Or do you consider cosmetics such as markings a health fault?

 Quote: Patti Neelans

But again genetics are NOT an exact science.

It is a lot more exact when you know what you are doing; which you don't. Another great reason to not create anymore litters until you put the work in and understand the heritability of the diseases in your line.

By the way what is the relationship of Rogue to Stryker? Hip dysplasia is a polygenic heritable disease as is cataracts by the way. The genes expressed by full brothers and sisters more directly represent the range of genes present in the breeding individual. So in a nutshell if they are siblings....Rogue shouldn't be bred but why listen to me when you wouldn't listen to an eye specialist.

Also, of 8 dogs in a genetics study I participated in that had cataracts 5 of them had either elbow or hip dysplasia; food for thought don't you think? So Patti, was there really nothing more you could have done to prevent Stryker's hip dysplasia? Having more knowledge before breeding would have been a huge step in the right direction.

You see the three dogs in my sig pic? My lab has perfect conformation, his parents are hunt tested, AKC reg'd and Can.KC reg'd and show champions with other titles as well, both of his parents passed all health clearances (and the breeder does yearly eye exams), the kennel is a very reputable/responsible one. But my lab has hypothyroidism. He was diagnosed with it before he was even 2yo. And he has a food allergy and now requires a special diet (if you consider a raw diet special-when the girls get high quality kibble). He's on Prednizone until we can lick his allergies and he's on Thyrosin for the rest of his life.
We had considered studding him out and at the very least getting a female to breed him to. He will NEVER be bred. Ever. One day we would like to breed labs, we want to get a great foundation male and female, we want to be sure that their temperments are excellent, that they'll pass their health tests. I will not start a breeding kennel with anything less than the best-I didn't say perfect-and it may very well take some time to find the right breeders to buy from (we already know one).

I know my GSD could've passed all her health tests-OFA hips/elbows, and eyes. She has correct conformation (the breeder we got her from had once showed GSD's. More than half her lineage is comprised of titled, working dogs (only about 1/4 show champs). Her GGG-Grandfather and GGG-Grandmother came from Leerburg kennel, Ed's favorite dogs from what he told me in an email once I really looked at her pedigree papers. So, she has the ped., the ability to pass health tests, but what about her overall temperment? She gets a little nervous sometimes, almost shy/sharp. That was the biggest thing that made me decide NOT to breed her. As much as I wanted to, I didn't want to risk having a litter of pups with the possiblity of a shy/sharp temperment.

I don't breed dogs yet, but when I do, I will take into consideration every aspect of the dogs and if there are ANY health issues, that dog will not be bred, period. There is no way around it. You cannot breed a dog in hopes of coming out with a litter that will be better than the parents, especially if one or both of the parents have any health issue (hereditary or not!).

I remember reading here once, that you can take two dogs with excellent temperments, excellent health and still get a mediocre pup. It happens. But when pups like that are born, they are tagged "pet" quality and are sold on a spay/neuter contract no matter what their conformation, color/markings, and temperment.

A responsible breeder will spend more to get good breeding stock and spend more money to raise and care for puppies until they are homes, they do not make much of a profit but yet they still find it very rewarding knowing that they are breeding the best dogs they can to better their breed.

Edited by Keleah Stull (09/10/2009 12:36 AM)
Edit reason: added more info

 Quote:

they do not make much of a profit but yet they still find it very rewarding knowing that they are breeding the best dogs they can to better their breed.

That's the understatement of the century. I think we've felt lucky if we broke even. You can't do it for the money because there is no money in breeding. Most breeders don't quit their day-jobs.

 Quote: kristel smart

 Quote:

they do not make much of a profit but yet they still find it very rewarding knowing that they are breeding the best dogs they can to better their breed.

That's the understatement of the century. I think we've felt lucky if we broke even. You can't do it for the money because there is no money in breeding. Most breeders don't quit their day-jobs.

I know it's a HUGE understatement, but I was hoping that Patti might change her mind about breeding being "thankless". Someone who thinks like that shouldn't breed dogs, IMHO. If I ever get to a point where I either can't keep up with the dogs or I start finding it "thankless", then I'll retire.

Yeah, it's true. If it were thankless then there wouldn't be much reason to stick with it, would there? I think folks who go in with the right attitude and expectations feel significantly less 'martyred'.