Quote: randy allen

ETA,
And someone who is familar with Collies said the yes, two roughs CAN throw a smothie.

I also stated that I'm not that up on coat genetics. But, I have emailed John Buddy of Tartanside Collies who is a collie expert. If he answers my email I'll post it here so we'll know for sure.

This thread has gotten very interesting.

Two smooth coated JRTs can have all three coats in a litter. Smooth, broken and rough.
This was the basis for the split in Smooth and wirehair Fox terriers. Until, I think, the mid 3os they were just Fox Terriers. preference for one or the other led to selective breeding. Breeders today wont acknowlede a wire showing up in a smooth litter and vs.vs but it happens.
Same with the Norwich and Norfolk with the different ear carrage. It became a choice and then became separate breeds. This is how different "breeds" are developed.
Ask a West Highland terrier breeder if they ever have brown pups.....then run.
The Kerry Blue, the Wheaten, the Irish, all came from one "breed". People just got selective with looks.

 Quote: bob scott

There is a very good reason for that in the Dachs.
The lonhair goes back to spaniel crosses and the wirehair goes back to terrier crosses.
The mini-wire can be a great little dog in earthwork.

Yes, I know that and think this might be one of the reasons but I know there has been mixing with different hairtypes that should mix the temperaments as well. The wires haven´t been so popular around here so I don´t know much about these crazy hunters but the longs and shorhaired have been rather popular for a long time and I have found that in the old local lines have mixing between them done on numeral occasions in the lines that are in the backround of many shorts today. Still the local shorts are generally more fiery than the longs. But the shorthaired ones are the most popular variety among hunters while longs are the most loved type among pet owners.

I don´t know if they got the "longhair gene" as a package deal with the "mellow gene" from the spaniels (said with enormous simplification) or is the difference in the temperament the doing of the breeding selections. I wish I did and if it happens around here that a shorthair litter that throws a long, I will defenately try to keep a close eye on them.

As for behavior and coat length, since all I have heard has been through observation, not laboratory isolation of alleles; the behavior that I and others have noticed could very well be because of:

1) How long coats are often treated vs short coats.

2) that those who select for the long coat, breed for pets not working dogs. So mellower dogs would be selected and long coats selected, and no linkage would be involved.

But even if there is linkage, it would not mean ALL long coats would be mellow. The closer any alleles are located to each other on a chromosome, the more likely it is that they will cross-over together. But the separation during cross-over could still fall between. Especially if the link is only moderately close.

As far as I know, now laboratory studies has been done that either confirms or disproves linkage. If anyone knows differently, I'd love to hear of it.

 Quote: Bob Scott

 Quote: Jaana Aadamsoo

 Quote: Joy van Veen

Of course this is a percentage, not all. The same is true in at least some other breeds. The Dachshund comes to mind.

Around here we don´t mix the coats anymore but the longhaired ones are mellower than the shorthaired but the wires have often with almost terrier-like temperaments. I have thought it is because of the longhaired dogs cuddly appearance that made pet-people take them and breed for lower energy dogs that are more problem free to keep as couchpillows.

My dachs has longhaired dogs in backround (V and VI generation that I know of and probably some more that I don´t) but she is a firecracker with more spunk than most shorthairs I know though she is bred by a show breeder (who just happens to have females with local old working line pedigrees).

There is a very good reason for that in the Dachs.
The lonhair goes back to spaniel crosses and the wirehair goes back to terrier crosses.
The mini-wire can be a great little dog in earthwork.

I have always felt that the AKC erred when they placed the Dachshunds in the hound vs the terrier group. Isn't earthwork considered a characteristic of terriers, not hounds?

Okay, I am still looking to see if the article I read on coat length inheritance is from a recent study or not. I have also asked on a genetics GSD chat group if anyone knows of recent studies.

But I do know that Willis identified coat length by "LL" homozygous dominant(long), "Ll" heterozygous (long but carrying the recessive short), and "ll" homozygous recessive (short). Two genetypic recessives can't produce a genetypic dominant. But the phenotype can be produced by interactions of many alleles, so it is theoretically possible for two smooths to produce a rough.

And that in GSDs at least, the heterozygous "Ll" is not simply phenotypically long coated, but is a long stock coat "laangstackhaar" and can vary in length between the long and stock. Never as long as the long, or as short as the stock (with the medium-short versions often called plush in some countries). Since the SV has recently decided to accept laangstockhaars to be shown as a variation, but not laanghaar; and the FCI has a proposal to the same they are considering; I am not the only one who sees a distinct difference beyond long and short in GSDs.

None of this adresses temperament though.

That Joy, was what I was going to say.
All this gnome stuff can be interesting, IF that what was in question.
Can we get back to temperament? That's what we were all talking about.

Specifically this statement:
Quote; In many breeds, the longer coats (whether actually long or just plush) seem to often go with mellower dogs. end quote

In case you forgot Joy.

 Quote: Joy van Veen

 Quote: Bob Scott

 Quote: Jaana Aadamsoo

 Quote: Joy van Veen

Of course this is a percentage, not all. The same is true in at least some other breeds. The Dachshund comes to mind.

Around here we don´t mix the coats anymore but the longhaired ones are mellower than the shorthaired but the wires have often with almost terrier-like temperaments. I have thought it is because of the longhaired dogs cuddly appearance that made pet-people take them and breed for lower energy dogs that are more problem free to keep as couchpillows.

My dachs has longhaired dogs in backround (V and VI generation that I know of and probably some more that I don´t) but she is a firecracker with more spunk than most shorthairs I know though she is bred by a show breeder (who just happens to have females with local old working line pedigrees).

There is a very good reason for that in the Dachs.
The lonhair goes back to spaniel crosses and the wirehair goes back to terrier crosses.
The mini-wire can be a great little dog in earthwork.

I have always felt that the AKC erred when they placed the Dachshunds in the hound vs the terrier group. Isn't earthwork considered a characteristic of terriers, not hounds?

I agree 100%. The name Dachshund itself means Badger dog. They were bred to go to ground against the European Badger.