Quote: cj barrett

Do those guys not wear gloves at all? The pup gave a couple of warning thrusts towards his hands when he put them really close to his face. Do they never connect with the hands or is the dog aware that they aren’t part of the biting equation? Suit material only?

Rarely, because gloves actually increase the chances of a hand bite. The dogs know they are supposed to bite equipment, not flesh, if neccessary there have been corrections involved in this lesson. Putting gloves on just means you have put a thin, not very protective, layer of fabric over your hands, and visually blurred the line between "approved for biting" and "not approved for biting".

I have had dogs accidentally bite the decoys hand in the guard of object, every time they immediately let go and transfered the bite into the suit. However, the same dogs have bit off the suit but still on fabric before, with one it was right on a cuff/shirt in the wrist area, the other the suit jacket rode up exposing the decoys waist and the dog bit them through their t-shirt. Neither dog let go until commanded to, both decoys ended up with scars. I've seen the same thing happen with dogs biting hands with gloves.

As for fear-biters. Generally genetics, with an environmental influence. Some dogs are genetic fear biters and it doesn't matter how good of an environment they are in, it can't be fixed, but other dogs are right on the edge genetically, put them in a good environment they will be fine, a bad one and they will be a fear biter. But it can also be caused by environment in some cases, when the negative environment is severe enough. It's the rare dog who is SO genetically stable that they can't be broken and turned into a fear biter given the right (wrong) environment, and enough time. They may improve when removed from the environment, but while in it if acts like a fear-biter, I'd call it a fear biter.

Kadi, what a great post. On both aspects. Your glove explanation was so informative. I totally get it now.

And I really like your understanding of fear biters. Very much along the lines of my thought process.

I think many, potential, weaker nerved dogs get through life without the label because they've been handled properly from the start and given no reason to bite inappropriately, while at the same time they’ve been built up with a lot of confidence. (I wish I had Vince from a pup - I think he could have been much different - nevermind, he will be).

The exact same dog in a different situation may get a genetic fear biter label from day 1 because of some unfortunate set of circumstances. I just don't think we can blame it entirely on genetics. It just seems too easy to me when there can be so many variables involved. Things that have happened that we may not even know about, let alone the way the pup has interpreted or associated the incident.

And I get that a strong nerved dog should be able to handle it, recover and move on but that always brings me to hard and soft dogs - the force they react to in physical corrections and their recovery speed from it. And while again I think this has a ton of variables and that it has more to do with the handler’s training style, a potentially hard dog may never be exposed to physical corrections, whereas a softer dog may end up in a home using Kohler methods. Depending on the skill of the trainer, the soft dog may not do well at all but could have thrived in a different situation.

I’m not exactly sure what I’m trying to say there but I understand that soft and hard dogs can come from the same genetics. Is this more an individual personality thing or could it be tied into nerves as well.

" I just don't think we can blame it entirely on genetics."


Sometimes a dog is born "wired wrong."

I know how hard it is to accept this. I really do. And of course, it's just MHO.

Until I saw it (more than once), I was iffy about accepting it.

After all, I have worked with fearful dogs, and I have found this work to be extremely rewarding; it can change a dog's life, IMHO. So accepting this, for me, took a lot.

But now I have no doubt at all about the fact that sometimes it is all genetic.

And also, I know now, there are a few dogs whose wiring is so bad that no management or hard work will result in a life that's relatively free of constant anxiety, constant "ghosts," and (IMO) misery. And I am not even addressing the affected lives of others.

No, this is not what most people are running into, IMO. And it's not what I am reading about on this thread. But yes, it does exist. The tragedy of it (and I do not use the term lightly) is heartbreaking.

I have nothing even close to the numbers of dogs having been in my life in one way or another as many of the members here. Also, the range of working and non- is much more limited in my own experience than in that of MANY here.

But IME, this (from Kadi) resonates with me on every point:

Generally genetics, with an environmental influence. Some dogs are genetic fear biters and it doesn't matter how good of an environment they are in, it can't be fixed, but other dogs are right on the edge genetically, put them in a good environment they will be fine, a bad one and they will be a fear biter. But it can also be caused by environment in some cases, when the negative environment is severe enough. It's the rare dog who is SO genetically stable that they can't be broken and turned into a fear biter given the right (wrong) environment, and enough time. ...

I watched the vid you linked Al, and I was complelely blown away at the complete brilliance of the dog with the decoy,(have I got that right, or is it a trainer?)

I have never really understood how intense the dogs get, and how ever long does it take to get the dog to that level? I even risked the wrath of god from my boss to watch it to the end, I could not take my eyes off it, and loads of you guys do this with you dogs?? well I salute you - amazing! I know of a couple of clubs in the area where we live, do the people mind outsiders going along to watch them train at your clubs?

I would love to do that if it is generally acceptable.

 Quote: Al Curbow

A damn ad comes up halfway through but keep it on to see the whole thing, it's worth it.

I could watch that OG a hundred times! And you are so right that this is worth the commercials.

Wasn't that fantastic. I can't thank him enough for posting that.

And Connie, yes, I do understand the dogs you are talking about. They are very visibly uncomfortable in their own skin. And I agree, it is tragic. There are definitely neurological problems that are inherent and for many of these dogs the world is just too much for them.

As far as the larger breeds go, I believe (or would hope) the lines with those types of issues are culled fairly quickly.

With the confidence and stability that Vince is showing in the majority of situations these days as well as his courage and eagerness to try new things, I don’t think we’re anywhere near there.

10 months of confusion, lack of exercise and no exposure to the outside world took its toll on him. Would a stronger nerved pup come out of this differently, perhaps.

Regardless, I definitely see potential in the progress he’s shown so far. I’m taking it pretty slow but we’ll see how far he gets.

 Quote: cj barrett

Interestingly enough, I understand that even some Sch 3 dogs might not "out", with 3 commands. Let's just hope they're not latched onto a hand when they decide to blow off that command.

I saw that just this past weekend. SchH2 dog, very very nice girl. Didn't out, with 3 commands given at a distance. Handler had to come to the dogs side to out her. Normally SPITS the sleeve on the out. This is a dog with no handler aggression, no fear issues. Just didn't want to out.

 Quote: kelly byrd

 Quote: cj barrett

Interestingly enough, I understand that even some Sch 3 dogs might not "out", with 3 commands. Let's just hope they're not latched onto a hand when they decide to blow off that command.

I saw that just this past weekend. SchH2 dog, very very nice girl. Didn't out, with 3 commands given at a distance. Handler had to come to the dogs side to out her. Normally SPITS the sleeve on the out. This is a dog with no handler aggression, no fear issues. Just didn't want to out.

Genetic's

I Agree, If You Have Dutch, You Don't Have Much!

 Quote: theresa macdonal

 Quote: kelly byrd

 Quote: cj barrett

Interestingly enough, I understand that even some Sch 3 dogs might not "out", with 3 commands. Let's just hope they're not latched onto a hand when they decide to blow off that command.

I saw that just this past weekend. SchH2 dog, very very nice girl. Didn't out, with 3 commands given at a distance. Handler had to come to the dogs side to out her. Normally SPITS the sleeve on the out. This is a dog with no handler aggression, no fear issues. Just didn't want to out.

Genetic's

I Agree, If You Have Dutch, You Don't Have Much!

Interesting thought. DS's tend to have a much wider gene pool then GSD's, as the KNPV dogs are commonly mixed.

Also, the dog in question was a very nicely bred GSD.

 Quote: kelly byrd

 Quote: theresa macdonal

 Quote: kelly byrd

 Quote: cj barrett

Interestingly enough, I understand that even some Sch 3 dogs might not "out", with 3 commands. Let's just hope they're not latched onto a hand when they decide to blow off that command.

I saw that just this past weekend. SchH2 dog, very very nice girl. Didn't out, with 3 commands given at a distance. Handler had to come to the dogs side to out her. Normally SPITS the sleeve on the out. This is a dog with no handler aggression, no fear issues. Just didn't want to out.

Genetic's

I Agree, If You Have Dutch, You Don't Have Much!

Interesting thought. DS's tend to have a much wider gene pool then GSD's, as the KNPV dogs are commonly mixed.

Also, the dog in question was a very nicely bred GSD.

Interesting Training