Oh Ellen, for someone that has never used an e-collar you have excellent understanding and insight. The only thing I will add is that you can get exacting precision with lower pressure, it just takes a little longer and more finesse than with high compulsion.

Regards and Respect,

Donn Yarnall http://donnyarnall.com

Thanks for the reply, Fred. You are vintage Fred Hassen on this one and only confirm my previous comments. It's like you went down the list to make sure you used them all; drop names, take credit for others' achievements, tap dance around issues, self-promotion, and never, never answer a direct question. Perhaps the following attorney's motto applies:

If you have the law on your side - argue the law.
If you have the facts on your side - argue the facts.
If you have neither the law or facts then baffle them with bullshit.

Regards

Donn YArnall

As a another deadset against the use of e-collars I can tell you how I formed my opinion. I have watched Fred and several others work their dogs with e-collars at some NAPD trials and Fred is right about one thing for sure, it did convince me to never put one of those things on any of my dogs. I didn't see anything with any of the e-collar dogs that I couldn't get with a leash and a slip collar, and it doesn't require so hard of a correction that the dog yelps evey time it is corrected.

You could tell the e-collar dogs even if you never saw the collar on the dog. I don't know how to explain it but the look on the face of those dogs was something I would never want to see on one of my dogs. They were quicker to obey an obedience command, but I don't think that 1/2 a second is worth the apparent cost to the dog.

Having read the posts from Lou and Donn I am now interested again in the e-collar. I am still not sure I would be willing to go that way, but it does seem to be at least worth looking at.

LOL, Donn--

You sure have a way with words. If you don't feel like advertising your upcoming book on this forum, please put me on your mailing list.

Ken Hungerford writes: Fred,
When the hell are you going to get to Florida to give a seminar?

Fred Hassen: Date will be Oct. 19-21st in Fla with Rik Wolterbeek and Dianne San Lorenzo. It will be two days of training, and a third day of retrieving. Will have the contact info on the Seminar page very shortly.

Fred Hassen http://www.fredhassen.com

Richard Cannon,

Do the words anxious and or suppressed describe what you saw in the dogs?

Regards,

Donn Yarnall http://www.donnyarnall.com

Thanks Renee, I will certainly do that.

Donn,

Anxious does not go far enough, but that is the general idea.

I have some things I would like to work on with my dogs that would be easier with an e-collar. Put I never could justify it since I could do the same things with a leash it would just be too time consuming. Both dogs are very defensive atthe door. The Giant will sit and behave fine as long as the Mini isn't around. On both I would like to reduce their guard territory for the house. It would be easier to do if I could give them something else to do rather than have to make hard corrections on them. But the high level corrections just looked like they would create a new problem so I have been stuck. From Lou's and your posts I think the low stim would work fine. I just need to get to a seminar so I am sure about the technique.

Would also like to suggest that their are other bulletin boards like Working Retriever Central, where people are much more educated on levels with collars, and understand that things are relative. They are intelligent enough to know that things are not put into level 1 and 2 for dogs. In fact, the vast majority of these top Retrievers are worked on higher levels. Now, I do understand that these are tough springer spaniels, and hard ass black labs, and that a police dog will fall apart........but it's good reading just the same. I do alot of my demos with my field dog, as well as my working protection dog. Alot of these principles are where I learned to be able to do 10 straight call-offs in a row, with no hesitation. It's where I learned to stop a dog every 10 yards, and resend him across an entire football field, without any hesitation either way.....and of course, I'm happy to demonstrate it at all of the seminars. Some of this stuff is pretty comical. I watch the negative comments, and they are always followed by someone who eventually fesses up that they don't use them, and haven't a clue.
I just never understood why someone would go to a person that actively admits that they have nothing but problems on higher levels than 1 or 2, to find out how to have success above that. Well, if anyone wants to find out, they can certainly start researching the retriever world, or watch someone that has success in that area. Mr. Yarnall is obviously against anything above level 1 or 2, and he would be a good person to see for level 1 and 2 training. Personally, I feel it's relative, and am in the streets daily with Springer spaniels, poodles, cocker spaniels, shy dogs etc, that are quite a bit higher and extremely happy. We see it alot at my seminars. I will be certain to announce the levels that the dogs are on at the Florida seminar, and I will have my monitor with me so you can tell when I'm pressing the button. I will be certain to bring a dog, and will gladly demonstrate numerous call-offs in a row for all to see....then sending the dog through. I will also stop, start, stop, start, stop, start, stop my dog for quite a long distance with no hesitation, and one right after the other.
You can judge for yourselves. I always release my dogs alot so people can observe their happiness, and that they are still a dog. Very important in my business.

Fred Hassen http://www.fredhassen.com

Ok Fred,

Maybe I don't have a clue. I trained all my retrievers with out an e-collar, and my protection dogs without one. It was for the same reason. I don't like what I have seen in dogs trained with one. To me it wouldn't matter if you could stop the dog every inch and still get it to go make a bite, I don't like the way I see the dogs work. Does that make me wrong, maybe, does it make me stupid, I don't think so. It is a personel opinion, I know people that train both ways. I don't care how they train, if they get what they want out of their dogs.

I was asked an opinion and I gave it. I have repeated often on this list that I don't train with an e-collar, and then defended their use. Ok maybe that does make me an idiot, I have been called worse. If your clients are happy then you will continue to do well. I wouldn't be happy so you will never see me at a seminar. It is not a type of training I am interested in doing. I can get the results I want without the level of corection I have seen used with an e-collar.

What I have seen is the difference in the attitude of the dog while it works, when it knows it is subject to a correction. If that is what you want go for it. And yes the dogs seem very happy when they are released. Take that as you will, I have one opinion and you have another. That is why you train the way you do and I train the way I do. Are my dogs perfect, heavens no, could I put a big correction and tighten them up, sure. It doesn't matter how you make the correction (e-collar, prong collar, or slip collar) you can get the same thing. It isn't what I want out of a dog. I don't make that type of a correction.

I am interested in the low stim method, because that is baisicly what I do any way. I am not even sure that I would be interested in that, I will have to look at it. I am always willing to learn something new even, if I don't use it. I will continue to learn and pull out what I want and leave out what I don't.

Yeah I know, your comments were not direceted at me.