Good stuff Tresa. And you've had him for how long?

And I guess your and my definition of "aloof" differ quite dramatically. Aloof is the way I would describe Vince.

Under no circumstances would he go pee on a human. That would involve an acknowledged interaction where some kind of contact or engagement was involved. He does not want anything to do with people.

In his case, when they purposely get into his space, he will let me know how uncomfortable he is. Walking along, walking by, people standing around, not acknowledging him, he simply has them on "ignore".

Other dogs as well. He "tolerates" them beautifully, but again, little to no acknowledgement that they are even there. He likes his pack but when we've allowed interactions with friends dogs, he's the boy off to the side trying to figure out a game on his own, just waiting for some kind of direction. If dogs join him, he'll goof around a bit but it's just something he tolerates, not something he enjoys nor a situation he would think of dominating in any way. It's just not his thing.

That's just kind of my experience with what I'm dealing with, but who knows, maybe I've got the terminology wrong.

When you say "hard to live with", can I ask what you mean by that? Is there specific things he does?

And that's interesting about his kennel/crate. You're having to bribe him to get in there. Is the crate in the kennel run or where is he when he's not in the kennel?

And I do hear you about the food issue. It took close to three days for Vince to eat when I first brought him home. When there's the slightest bit of excitement in the air, he'll have no part of food.

His meal times (twice a day) are very structured as well but he's got a good appetite for them these days. Food rewards are still an issue but we're making some headway there.

So yes, they do tend to manipulate their intake which can be signs of all kinds of things but on a continual basis like this, I think it's just that higher, excess energy. They just don't need the food to operate in this energetic state and who knows what it feels like in their stomach. I know when I'm anxious to do something or nervous, the last thing on my mind is food. Which is kind of the approach I've taken with Vince.

Three years of working on demons, exposing and desensitizing him to simple daily living and then moving onto the big world around him.

And Logan is a resource guarder? Sounds like you've got some work there too.

IMHO, I think "aloof" and "dominant" are the last ways I'd be describing him. He sounds posessive and very reactive at this point and really doesn't know a social right from wrong. Peeing on people, immediately reacting to other dogs (scent and play).

Sounds more like a spoiled brat that's been "allowed" to dominate all aspects of his life, this pooping thing all part and parcel of that.

So yeah, and simply IMHO, as I kind of suspected, there are some other things in the relationship/NILIF that I'd be working on first.

Number one would be getting him to go number two in your yard before he got to leave the yard.

I rescued him at 1 yr and he is going on 7 now.

I don't know how to get him to go in the yard, if I was to not take him out of the yard for how many days it took, he'd drive me nuts! He has a lotta drive...energy that has to be drained, period. Also as Connie said once, beware of his getting impacted from not pooping.

Just to make this clear, those behaviors I listed he doesn't not do with me. I do not allow it. The food guarding towards other people crops up every now and then...like if my back is to him and I don't see them coming, they make eye contact (therefor challenging him) and all hell breaks loose.

I do not allow his possessiveness of me or any other "brat" thing like that. People are amazed at how well behaved he is.

He is aloof towards most people, I don't allow petting anyway. He doesn't go up to people, he expects them to go to him or mostly just indifferent. He's standoffish and proud but not avoidant like Vince...I found out one day that he would lift his leg on a person, I caught it before he did it. He's done the sniff and turn a few other times but I corrected that. I have to be very aware, because he always knows when I let my guard down. He just one of those dogs you can't let your guard down ever...like Enzo.

Hard to live with like: other than can't ever let my guard down, I have to provide a lot of structured interaction, exercise and mental stimulation. If I slack a little I pay for it. He can't ever be left alone loose, always supervised with other people even the ones who live here...stuff like that.

But he's awesome, handsome, very smart, playful, fun, unique, creative...etc.

As for the kennel and crate....he'll go in just fine for me. We've had a few refusals before though, was easy to fix. I feed him at night so he'll eat....I say kennel and he runs and waits in his kennel for me to bring the food. Sometimes I lead him by the collar.

"Also as Connie said once, beware of his getting impacted from not pooping."

Absolutely! But I said that in this context? The context of venue choice?

I know I've said this, but I think it would have been about about relieving constipation before it becomes impaction.


I didn't read all of the thread .... does he hold it to the point of constipation .... to the point of hard poops and straining?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"Also as Connie said once, beware of his getting impacted from not pooping."

Absolutely, if he is holding it and it’s really taking more than a day or two, I think Connie’s also got something in her bag of tricks; sorry can’t remember the name of it, which will make him go if that impaction actually happens.

If he's a normal, healthy boy though, that's eating properly and has access, outside of his kennel, I think you'll get a joyful explosion before he does any real harm to himself.

Instead of the 2 mile bike ride with various unproductive stops, he won't have the scenic tour (but IMHO, he doesn't quite deserve it at this point), a lot of tug (he plays tug right), a few fetch games in there, balls, frisbee, maybe set up an obstacle course.

Not sure what you have available but a few crates, maybe a couple of chairs with a broom across. Stretch a tarp over some old sawhorses and have him go under that, keep lowering it so he has crawl thru. Lot of stuff to do around home to drain some of that energy and get those bowels moving.

I'd take a day or two or three and be out there every hour giving him an opportunity. And when he finally lets go, a huge celebration including a quick walk out of the yard. Short enough so that hopefully he doesn't have need to go again right away. But if he does, please don't stop him.

Back in the yard and few fun games and then whatever you do with him after an outing.

Another angle may be to get your command to work at home. You say he sort of knows "Go Poopy"...sorry but I'll take the ponies anyday.

Break this one down to every hour as well. Let him out of the kennel. "Logan, Go Poopy."

Give him about 10 minutes, nothing from you, just the one command, (that he knows right?), bring a book, let him drive you crazy (well don't, very important, nothing from you), let him do whatever he's going to do, (short of ripping up your book of course). No poop, back in the kennel.

Next hour, same thing, let him out. One command from you, "Go Poopy" and give him 10 minutes. Nothing... back in the kennel.

If nothing else, this will be a change for him mentally that he's probably not used to. Getting those gears working will probably also carry over for a few of minutes in the hour in between.

Next hour, same thing. And of course, the minute he goes, BIG party, on with leash and out of the yard you go. Again, just a short trip the first time, teaching him that he relieves himself at home, before that gate opens.

When he's getting good at, extend the walks a little longer, always trying to get back before he has to go. Break the cycle and work from there. It may teach him a bit more self control energy wise as well.

And trust me, I know it's tough but really, it won't kill him.

Oh and no, what Vince is doing is not avoidance. I've seen him with inappropriate pressure put on him and know what his avoidance looks like. In a round about way, I'm trying to teach him some avoidance with our handshake command, but his demeanor is simply one of minding his own business. He avoids very little, he ignores a lot.

But this isn't about Vince or terminology. The only real fun and universal terminology here is how many different ways there is to say poop.

 Quote:

I didn't read all of the thread .... does he hold it to the point of constipation .... to the point of hard poops and straining?

Kind of yeah. He'll also wait until I kennel him at night since he was kennel raised, but only out of desperation. You'd think the yard would be preferable.

 Quote:

Absolutely! But I said that in this context? The context of venue choice?

Yeah I had a thread about him not using the yard before...that was a while back. I was afraid he would wait too long.

I'm seriously thinking about sticking a match in his @$$! Its so wrong but I dunno LOL

 Quote: CJ Barrett

But this isn't about Vince or terminology. The only real fun and universal terminology here is how many different ways there is to say poop.

Well this thread is all about poop....which is fine as long as nobody flings any LOL

Oh ok, so Vince is just not that interested in others, gotcha.

Logan will stand proud, tail up...eye contact, it would be ok if they're submissive, they think he's friendly and he is , in a way. Don't get me wrong, we have done a lot of work and I don't allow him to show dominance to other people. There are some characters walking around here in the hood yo...and they trip him out (defense) but that is another thing I've gotten under control. Its their body language and partly even him reading off of me. Sometimes its a good thing around here, I should teach him a non obvious command for watch. So in a way I say he's aloof, with mild interest I guess.

Actually, Vince has no problem being alone and would be a perfect dog for an only dog, one dog, house setting type of thing, however, the "ignore" in the various situations is largely a result of a ton of exposure and desensitization work.

But again, personally, I can't stress enough, about how far a little more firm leadership goes with these guys.

Logan is ruling the roost on this issue and again personally, it would be me creating the circumstances for that poop, not a match.

Let me tell what he'll do....say I have him on a long line with a buckle collar. He has to crap and he wants to hop the fence and crap in the neighbor's yard. I don't correct because I want him to poop, I only say nope when he goes to jump and hold him back...so its not a correction. I say "go poopy" and he whines and whines looking over there. Won't do it.

Here I am talking crap again. :-D

Perfect opportunity for that leadership in either of the scenarios I outlined.

Personally, with his anxiety and the whining, I'd probably go with the second one.

Put on a thick belt and attach that long line to you. Let him out, click in on, Logan...Go Poopy and you wait.

Get a good braced position, chair, whatever (don't how easily you can withstand the physical pressure he's going to put on you) and make sure you're in a position or the long line is short enough so he can't reach the fence area. How big is your yard?

Let him do what he's going to do. Absolutely no corrections, he'll be putting the pressure on himself for those 10 minutes.

Whining, crying, kicking up a bratty fuss and you do NOTHING.

Your only focus is to get him to poop. 10 minutes and back in his kennel.

What does it say about my dog experience that this is the first thread I feel totally qualified to help out in..... lol

Continue to take him out and encourage him to use the spot you want, but don't be longer than you want, or allow him to try and drag you off to the neighbors, redirect him to 'the spot'. He either uses it or not... carry on with your day.

When he poops away from home you need to say NOPE, bag it up and go directly home, put it where you want it to be, start over, direct him to the poop, give your dog the command and the time, carry on with your plans after that. Your dog will be disgusted I suspect, I respectfully disagree with those who think dogs are not born with pooping issues, some just naturally think it's really important this not be done at home, or anywhere near.

Next day, take him out to the spot, direct him to the poop, give the command, wait reasonable time, carry on with your day. Don't clean up the previous poop till you have a new one, regardless if he lands it there or you have to bring it back. If he lands it there be reassuring in your praise, relaxing and comforting, he thinks he is wrong so keep that in mind. Not a celebration so much as a release.

Mistakes I made in fixing this with my SAR GSD

Not keeping the poop fresh, the one you brought home last time will not do, keep cycling to the new stuff. It seems that if I gave up on all of them coming home he thought I would give up period and let him poop anywhere/anytime.

Giving him more time. They are amazing at waiting as you have found. Decide how much time he has in your lifestyle and stick to it.

Not being willing to come home from the walk and start over. Sign up and decide that for the next while that's your project, to end this issue and just do it. Once I bought in it was half over. Returning him (the same distance that it took him to decide on the first dump) often got me the second small bit which could be reassured, and then a nice walk with some positive markers for whatever along the way. Maybe the walk was shorter as I had a time limit in the am as it sounds you do too, but still it was a walk.

The discussion of matchsticks is interesting, I would not use wood for that at all since it could do damage. The thing I think is happening there is stimulation of the posterior rectum which is sometimes used in human medicine for the same result. However a gloved finger is employed not a sharp ended stick that could poke or leave slivers! If you want to try that at your yard's 'spot' I'd suggest finding a soft plastic something about the diameter of a thermometer and directing it upward to gently rub his rectum at the top.

In show horses sometimes those that are white or have white back legs use an herbal cream or ointment on or in the anus before they go in the warm up ring. It stimulates the horse to clear and then they have time to make sure the legs don't have green staining before they enter the ring, good first impressions of the judge kinda idea. I think it was a mild menthol or something, but a horse never licks it's butt so I'm not sure this is a great idea with a dog, but thought it interesting that we are not alone in needing some poop control.

Hope that helps.

April