 Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378321 - 05/23/2013 08:57 PM |
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Connie; I typically try to remove reminders from OB behaviors as soon as possible, so they won't become a crutch for the dog ....
I don't put the usual basic ob commands in the same box as automatic responses.
I don't fade the cues when I want an automatic (no-command) response until the dog is doing it solidly, reliably.
Remember that with nearly all basic ob commands, there's a command. A pretty big "reminder."
I think they were faded too fast, because the dog still complies if you give any kind of a cue, from a stop-and-wait to a correction. This says to me that the dog still needs it. And I don't really want my correction to be a cue to comply .... for many reasons, from "immunity" to the dog version of resentment.
JMO!
Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/23/2013 08:57 PM)
Edit reason: add Duane's quote
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Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378330 - 05/23/2013 09:43 PM |
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I make it a point of tackling a 'problem' ONLY when I know that I have all the time in the world that it will take to complete the task. It doesn't help if I have my mind on the fact that I have to be somewhere or do something at a certain time. I am in it for as long as it will take. Period.
If I have to break something down into several parts in order to have all the time in the world to accomplish it...then that's what I do. And then put the pieces together in one behavior later. That way I never feel like I have to rush something. I can take whatever time it takes to get it done.
MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Anne Jones ]
#378331 - 05/23/2013 09:52 PM |
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"I make it a point of tackling a 'problem' ONLY when I know that I have all the time in the world that it will take to complete the task. .... If I have to break something down into several parts in order to have all the time in the world to accomplish it...then that's what I do. And then put the pieces together in one behavior later. That way I never feel like I have to rush something. I can take whatever time it takes to get it done."
I think this is a billboard post. 
Not just for this auto-sit, but as you say, for any training problem.
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Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378342 - 05/24/2013 05:26 AM |
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Remember that with nearly all basic ob commands, there's a command. A pretty big "reminder."
When in the learning phase or with basic stuff, yes. When teaching a competition pattern or chaining a compound behavior, the goal is to reduce the commands to one command for the entire behavior, and in schutzhund, the verbal command cannot be accompanied by a non-verbal.
Sadie |
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 Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378347 - 05/24/2013 09:12 AM |
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!!*%// &**!//? #$$*//~ !!!!
Yeah, I think so too Connie. And it made me think about something. When I get to work in the morning I unload Chaos and have him sit at the base of the stairs while I close the tailgate. When I'd release him to move, he'd launch up those stairs like he was going over the a-frame. I had created a pattern very similar to what I had done on the field, in his mind anyway.
Well I struggled with wondering how hard I should correct him because he damn well should have known the difference. We're 50 miles away from the field. But one day I did things a little different, and what do ya know??? He went calmly up the stairs. I had inadvertently broken that pattern. So every once in awhile, I don't sit him at the base of the stairs and now he's able to keep the two separate in his little coconut.
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 Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: steve strom ]
#378349 - 05/24/2013 09:58 AM |
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!!*%// &**!//? #$$*//~ !!!!
Sadie |
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Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#378350 - 05/24/2013 10:01 AM |
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!!*%// &**!//? #$$*//~ !!!!
I was shocked too.  (Actually, it was a great morning laugh.)
Remember that with nearly all basic ob commands, there's a command. A pretty big "reminder."
When in the learning phase or with basic stuff, yes. When teaching a competition pattern or chaining a compound behavior, the goal is to reduce the commands to one command for the entire behavior, and in schutzhund, the verbal command cannot be accompanied by a non-verbal.
There's a place for pattern training. You have named one.
However, we weren't talking about a competition pattern.
I think that you have woven a pattern here too, and when you deviate, the dog is lost. The dog "knows" if you remind her (with your correction or your stop-cold).
But actually, I wouldn't really care why, except for extrapolating the error to other areas and stopping it. I'd care about fixing this. What Anne and Tracy said to do is a good fix.
All JMO. I have a strong tendency to load cues onto the safety behaviors of the curb-sit, the everyday recall, the "behind-me" command, etc. And I break every possible inadvertent pattern.
Then I withdraw the cues only when the dog is rock solid. And even then, I withdraw them gradually. JMO again.
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Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Tracy Collins ]
#378357 - 05/24/2013 11:17 AM |
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" It is always possible that various posters are really saying very similar things, while using a non-similar (or maybe even conflicting) vocabulary of terms "
Yes indeed. Which applies to me in this thread. In re-reading my response earlier, I don't mean to say that I've instilled the same "temperament" in my dogs with similar training. Temperament is innate--that's what they come to me with. (Although there is a skill in evaluating the temperament of a potential puppy or dog you are thinking about getting and knowing whether or not you've got the potential there for the dog you want.)
What I wanted to say is that even dogs with different temperaments (nature) can--with the right training (nurture) be guided to consistent response. You have to adjust the nurture to the nature. Some require more nurture than others. But few dogs can be successful in their modern roles living with people on nature alone.
Whether by selection or training, people are largely responsible for the behavior of the dog they've got--not the dog.
Excellent post, IMHO, thanks for your clarifications 
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Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378366 - 05/24/2013 12:59 PM |
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"All JMO. I have a strong tendency to load cues onto the safety behaviors of the curb-sit, the everyday recall, the "behind-me" command, etc. And I break every possible inadvertent pattern. "
I should have said much more clearly that I load cues into a safety behavior that I want to become automatic (curb-sit) and withdraw them only one by one, randomly, only after the dog is doing it reliably, solidly.
The pattern-avoiding is for all of them.
I just went outside and walked myself through what I actually do when training those. Amazing how sitting typing what I do can be a tad different from going out and "feeling" what I do.
You are right. A video is really worth ten million words.
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Re: Are some breeds less understood?
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#378368 - 05/24/2013 01:11 PM |
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After going through the behaviors with her last night and this morning, it is not the cues. I removed all of them, and she was solid with a few seconds of waiting (a tad longer when she is really anxious). Akin to what Anne said, I'm just being more consistent with out-stubborning her, and I noticed that I have to be more patient and wait her out, instead of abruptly resorting to a repeated command or a correction. It's very obvious that she knows what she is supposed to do.
Sadie |
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