Duane Hull wrote 10/21/2013 06:13 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384794 - 10/21/2013 06:13 PM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	To make sure I'm not misunderstood, Clicker training is marker training, but not all marker training is clicker training. I was trying to illustrate to Natalie that marker training does not necessarily exclude corrections. Sadie
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 06:19 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Duane Hull ] #384795 - 10/21/2013 06:19 PM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	Quote: Duane Hull To make sure I'm not misunderstood, Clicker training is marker training, but not all marker training is clicker training. I was trying to illustrate to Natalie that marker training does not necessarily exclude corrections. i know it doesn't, that's why i decided to follow it. if it was purely positive then i wouldn't. but i was talking about something different, Ed explaining how clicker training came about and why he was against it for so long. it's not about corrections per se, just why Ed thinks a whale or a parrot can be trained with no corrections and a dog can't (in his opinion).
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 06:23 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Mara Jessup ] #384796 - 10/21/2013 06:23 PM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	Quote: Mara Jessup Dogs can be trained without corrections (I know people who don't use corrections) however dogs also have the ability to take a correction and learn from it. They have a high level of pack drive that those other species do not. Correct a killer whale and they'll be done with it, correct a dog (in a straightforward, fair manner) and they learn from it. Dogs are also routinely trained to a much higher/more precise level than those other species. yes, i know dogs can be trained with no corrections. this is a case of me reading something in an article and wondering why the person said that. Ed said he didn't like the clicker training because he thought it was no corrections and he thought dogs must have it. his explanation for the reason why clicker training invovles no corrections was that clicker training came to us from seaworld and they don't correct killer whales. and that got me wondering why Ed agreed that killer whales can be trained with no corrections and dogs couldn't. seems like killer whales are that much harder to manage and that much harder to train. just another useless question. i read things, something gets stuck, i wonder about it.
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Mara Jessup wrote 10/21/2013 06:37 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384797 - 10/21/2013 06:37 PM
Mara Jessup Webboard User Reg: 12-28-2005 Posts: 2316 Loc: Offline	Umm, how did I not answer the question?? Pack drive, dogs have it, Killer whales don't. You've got to purely motivate the killer whale. But since a dog is hardwired to work with you corrections can be useful communication in the teaching process. But perhaps you should just email Ed instead of posting questions here if you're only interested in his take on it. K-9 Knitter
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Duane Hull wrote 10/21/2013 06:46 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384798 - 10/21/2013 06:46 PM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	Just how would you correct an animal in a pool? Two things... First, that article is aged. Ed's perception of marker training has grown and developed in recent years, and the archived stuff is not always as relevant as the newer material that he is producing. When he wrote that article, clicker training was by far the most prevalent form of marker training, and it took a while for it to be accepted by the dog training world. Ed's many, many, many years of experience training working dogs has taught him that a system that incorporates some corrections is more effective for dogs than a purely positive system. It doesn't help that a lot of positive trainers come across as fanatical. Not all animals are the same. Cows are not as intelligent or apt as, say, dogs or horses. What works for one animal does not necessarily work for another. Give a parrot or a cat a correction, and he may never trust you again. A soft dog handles a correction differently than a hard dog. Sadie
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 06:46 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Mara Jessup ] #384799 - 10/21/2013 06:46 PM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	i didn't say i wanted his take only. what does pack drive have to do with corrections? and i don't think dogs are hardwired to work with us either. if that was the case no one would spend energy on motivation. but you might be right, no one exccept Ed knows why he wrote that lol. so we can leave it at that.
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Tammy Moore wrote 10/21/2013 06:47 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Mara Jessup ] #384800 - 10/21/2013 06:47 PM
Tammy Moore Webboard User Reg: 01-14-2010 Posts: 1564 Loc: USA Offline	Natalie, are you reading a little too much Ted Turner?
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 06:52 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Duane Hull ] #384801 - 10/21/2013 06:52 PM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	i agree in that purely positive sound fanatical. also, as someone said, they outright eliminate some tools without even seeing the dog. about correcting in a pool? i guarantee you there's a way. e collar lolol that was a joke))))) but i'm sure humans could've thought of something, i have faith))))))) yeah, his articles ARE old and sometimes contradict what he said in other articles.
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 06:57 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Tammy Moore ] #384802 - 10/21/2013 06:57 PM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	Quote: Tammy Moore Natalie, are you reading a little too much Ted Turner? i don't read books in english and don't know who that is ETA i just googled him. so what did you mean by this post?
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Duane Hull wrote 10/21/2013 07:02 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384803 - 10/21/2013 07:02 PM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	Quote: Natalie Rynda what does pack drive have to do with corrections? and i don't think dogs are hardwired to work with us either. if that was the case no one would spend energy on motivation. This, obviously, is based on your wealth of experience. You are arguing with someone (Mara) who has a lifetime of experience studying and training dogs. The thousands-year-old process of domesticating dogs HAS hardwired them to work with humans. If there waqs a way to correct whales, humans WOULD HAVE found it. Besides, as Mara said, dogs ain't whales! Sadie
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