Some interesting information, but I wonder at the selection and control of the survey group.

Using their figures 40% of the whites carried one of the genetic problems. That is a difficult number to wrap my head around. It doesn't mean a whole lot to me. The individual estimated %s of carriers was interesting.

I'd like to see comparisons of other breeds to see what their % were. Especially the GSD.

I will have to go look for some figures. I do know, in my small bit of research, no database workable as yet, had some *issues*, anyway, many of the GSDs I have info on that have EPI are white, or are black and tan but have a white parent. Not scientific at all, but does give me pause given numbers of colored GSDs around versus whites. AKC is doing work on it with a univeristy in Texas, hope more info soon, their report was delayed. They hope to isolate the gene, and hopefully these dogs will not be bred. As it is now, in spite of all findings saying it is autosomal recessive, many prefer to *blame the bitch* and continue to stud out their males, as they only had EPI dogs when they were bred with x female. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Damned by their own study.........

A 40 % incidence of a genetic based problem is an outrageous level of problems. Even more interesting is the things that they left out of the study, that occured at significant rate. Especially when the PRIMARY temperament problem I have seen in White Sheperds is excluded as "not being geneticly based". I guess that the fact that it tends to occur in lines, and the breeders consider it to be a significant GENETIC problem is beside the point. If you look at the other things on the list, like ear infections, there is significant credible evidence that this type of problem is based on the structure of the ear. The desease may not be genetic, but the root cause certainly is.

Perhaps if there was a more realistic evaluation of the breed the numbers would go much higher. Just include the other obivous problems not used in the study but are listed. At one point in time there were a few capable Whites, that time frame is long gone. The only good thing that was done was to list it as a seperate breed, which it has become.

I am no expert on Genetics, but I thought Dr. George Padgett was, so I am assuming that the evaluation is as realistic as it is going to get.
I also thought, considering the amount of defects the evaluation took in that 40% was quite low, perhaps I am wrong.
Richard, can you please elaborate on “PRIMARY temperament problem” and unless you are an expert on Genetics I think I would rather believe Dr. Padgett, unless you can point me to some expert opinions. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying you are wrong, but I am looking for facts.
Again Richard you say that the Ear infection is caused by a genetic defect to the structure of the ear, please let me know where you got this information, because I find it hard to believe that something like that would have been missed on the survey.
And by the way, I don’t think they were “Damned by their own study” the reason the study was carried out was to better the breed,after all it is what every breeder wants,is it not?

Steve,

Even in the description of the temperament problems the breeds state that they see fear based aggression as a big problem, and consider it genetic. You will see it run in lines. It happens in other breeds too. Fear based aggression is MUCH harder to deal with than a straight dominance issue. Dominant behavior can be controled. Fear based behavior it is very difficult to remove the root cause of the behavior, the fear.

As for the ears. Look at the tendancy for this problem to run in lines. The problem is generaly caused by a narowwing of the ear canal. That type of structure is genetic.

Also look at the comments on Spinal instability. There is a similar problem in Dobes and that is a genetic component to that.

Looking at this study it starts from a flawed premis and contains too few animals to look at and no attempt to correlate problems in lines. The way to look for genetic problems, and determin which problems are genetic and which are not, is not to decide what is genetic BEFORE you start. If it tends to run in lines then it is genetic. If you are going to look for genetic problems you need to look a several generations not just at specific dogs.

One of the problems with reading this type of research is that you have to read very carefully what the method used was and look at the discussion of the study and what they didn't include.

Here is a quote from the paper:

"Some of our breeders feel that the timid or soft dog is another category of behavior that may also be genetic in origin. Since this was not a trait determined to be genetic for the GSD by Dr. Padgett’s sources, we could not include it in our survey. Even though this category could not be included on the list of Genetic Traits of the White Shepherd, I included a category of Nervous/Fearful so we could at least see what kind of responses we’d get. This category was checked off 75 times but often with qualifying remarks."

That would make this far and away the most common defect. From the same section it states that "According to his sources, the GSD has a pre-disposition to one of them. That one is Aggression, which is defined as extremely assertive or forceful with other dogs and people, may attack without reasonable provocation." In other words the good doctor WAS TOLD that dominance aggression is the only form of genetic based temperament problem. I doubt many here would agree with that assesment. Who told him that and based on what research?

Really read the study and what was excluded. Heart murmurs, CHF, undiagnosed heart problems, Intestinal malabsorption, and begnin tumors (known to occur geneticly in breeds Mini Schnauzer being one). What a list!!!!! As sad as it is researchers often will slant data to favor their proposed conclusion. I doubt that it is intentional, but it does happen. Eliminating data that doesn't fit, not looking at all the relevent data, and a host of other problems.

Really read this paper, Ithink you wil see my point.

Deanna, when I was growing up I had a friend whose white shepherd was downright vicious!!!!The dog was feared by all, and lived with a family of 8 kids, whom she would have laid down her life for. She was very interesting. Even though I loved dogs,and tried to befriend them all, I never went near that one!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK, I skipped a few pages by accident here!! I was responding to Deanna's comment that white shep people pride themselves on laid back dogs!

Time for me to go to sleep!! :rolleyes:

Steve Wilson. . .did you READ that report? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yes I did Robert, that is why I am asking to be directed to the one on the GSD,
Don’t forget, on the survey it states that out of 1000 White Shepherds their were 57 defects, I an assuming the same number of GSD’s were used, and 138 defect were found, the fact that GSD’s are one, if not the largest groups is irrelevant, it is still taken from 1000 dogs, and it is still 138 defects. I am surprised the amount of GSD breeders on this Forum and not one has come up with this report, does it exist?
Richard, you missed some of the Quote.

“The 75 dogs reported in the Nervous/Fearful category indicates that 7.5% of our dogs have this trait (described a number of ways by people). If this is, in fact, a genetic trait, we have a carrier rate of 39.4%. If, after we as a Club discuss the Genetic Defects and feel we have a problem, we need to decide together how to approach it and reduce the number of affected dogs. This could be one of those traits that might be worthwhile to pinpoint on a geneticists pedigree to see where it occurs and from which lines of dogs.
Some questions we need to ask are: Were they properly socialized? Some of the timid or soft dogs from pet owners may, in fact, be a result of poor socialization. But we don’t know that. On the other hand, if a very young puppy showed shy/timid/fearful/nervous behavior, could this be genetic in origin? Do we expect kennel dogs to exhibit shy, fearful behavior – or only certain lines from certain parents? Do the same questions apply to the aggressive dogs? Were the aggressive dogs born this way or made this way?”

The way I read it, no one seems to know.

I still don't see what you are refering to that improves your argument for the white shepherd.

Selection of the sample group would be an interesting read, for sure. . .

Where did the 1000 dogs come from, what bloodlines, where they centrally located or from all over the world, what age groups were used, who decides what the criteria are for each problem . . .etc.

BUT, a sampling of 1000 dogs would still reflect the larger genetic diversity of the GSD and contain more possible defects. I want to know of %s, that is a telling number. And what are the other defects that they have? Yes, it would be nice to see the whole report and critically analize it. The % would be nice to see in comparison, but only if we know a lot about the selection of the test groups.

GSDs carry a bunch of defects, they are a HUGE and DIVERSE gene pool. There are 5+ distinct bloodlines (I would call them breeds) that are GSDs.

It would not surprise me if, worldwide, it was found that the German Shepherd Dog carried every single genetic flaw known to exist in the canine world. There are that many GSDs.

Steve, what point are you trying to make with your continuing arguments? White GSDs are what? Just as good as other GSDs? Just as healthy? Just as good workers? Just as "intelligent"? Shouldn't be considered a different breed? Are not flawed? Need to be recognized again by the SV? Are good pets? What?

Why don't you just say what you are trying to say, and give me what you are comparing them to?

white shepherd vs. American show shepherd
white shepherd vs. working line shepherd
white shepherd vs. backyard pet bred shepherd
white shepherd vs. German conformation shepherd
white shepherd vs. UK "working" (ha ha) lines

What?? I'm getting tired of this crap. What is the bottom line?

This is a working dog forum, so here is a my working dog perspective. There are no proven working line white shepherds, there are so few white shepherds that do work that the breed is a big nil for finding working prospects, the breed has not been selected for health-working ability-temperament to the level that the working lines or German conformation lines have. . .so they are going to be very far behind in that respect, the breed IS NOT RECOGNIZED BY THE SV AND NEVER WILL BE so get off that kick.