Ben,
Choke chains don't cut the mustard when push comes to shove. Prongs escalates agression. And the best thing I can say about positive reenforcement for handler agression or on other animal agression turned to handler agression is a quote from my long time house mate when I mentioned this thread during dinner. 'Try that line of positive input with a dominant-agressive dog, and report back. When you can type again, you can tell us all about the merits of the system'.


If I'm not learning, I'm not paying attention.
Randy

Jennifer. Marshall says,
Prongs and E Collar Stimulation gernerally increases the level of aggression in an animal.
If that is the case why are etheir of these collars used and much talked about if they escalate a problem the handler is trying to stop
Plus if you use a DD collar to stop an Aggressive Dog, this time, and it slows it down, there is no way any one can say it will not happen again the next Day or sometime in the future, Animals are not robots, and they will react the same way again at some time or the other,
The way some posters put it all you need is a DD Colar and all problems will be solved, i think it is as easy as that.
To me If a Dog is aggressive to its owners, providing they have cared for the Dog in a proper manner, and not ill treated it at all then for me it is never going to be 100% safe whatever to go out in Public Places, and needs to Be Trained by someone who can work on the Dogs problem in a proffesional way, Not a ordinary person, Again to me that is silly of the Owner and not fair to the Animal

In response to you Steve, IMO (based on my experience) the E-Collar and Prong is used on dogs that are not/have not been handler aggressive and whose aggression is not "out of control" up to the point where the E-Collar and prong are introduced into the situation where aggression comes into play. Some dogs will shut down after a strong enough prong or ECollar stim, but timing is extremely important in this and generally the dog is of a softer temperament.

The use of these collars depends on the dog and the situation. Most of us try the "lesser of the evils" (though I do not believe the DD or other collars are "evil", figure of speach here) and try to work our way up the levels. The use of the DD collar is generally considered "drastic" depending on who you ask. For me, personally, it is an insurance policy and put on a dog even if that is not the first collar the dog is given a correction on.

Harder, drivier dogs that do not receive the prong or stim correction at exactly the nanosecond it is required.. which there is a very very very tiny little window on dominant aggressive dogs of when the dog is alert but not yet in drive, and a lot of people cannot see this or cannot act fast enough upon seeing it, to properly time the stim or prong correction... anyhow, if not timed exactly perfectly correct the stimulation of a prong especially can and will incite and escalate the situation and the dog's level of aggression because it is interpreted as an attack by the dog, a physically based challenge.

To note.. a prong collar, to a dog, simulates the feeling of teeth from another dog, hence it's general effectiveness at correcting a majority of issues with a lot of dogs. It is a more natural feeling than the stim of an e-collar and a dog instinctually reacts to it. With that said, a dominant aggressive dog that was not corrected "in time" that has begun aggressive behavior, if corrected with a prong will escalate the level of aggression because the sensation of the prong is like teeth, which is a very very direct and not in any way subtle "attack" as perceived by a dominant dog.

E-Collar stim increases the aggression and escalates also due to timing and because of the physical sensation, while not "natural" in the sense of simulating a feeling a dog would get from confrontation with another dog or pack member, is still physical and still an "attack." Generally ECollars are only used in aggression issues if the dog has previously been worked with, properly trained with an ECollar so the dog understands that a stim is a correction.

Whether the dog associates the "attack" by means of prong or stim with the other dog/animal, or the handler doesn't matter so much as the fact that the situation will escalate and can easily result in injury to the handler.

I am very fuzzy headed right now, cannot sleep, so I hope this made sense and I apologize for any spelling or grammar issues.

Steve: With most dogs you are not trying to stop aggression, you are correcting unwanted behaviors or bringing up drives when working the dog, not in conflict with the dog - collars can be used to increase drive. This is why if the dog is already in an aggressive state (towards handler or towards another animal)and you try to correct that behaviour with pinch collar or ecollar, you only serve to inhance the level of aggression already being displayed. You use these same tools on dogs that can be dominant/aggressive as you would with any other dog, during normal training, but not to correct the dominant/aggressive behaviour.

Okay, Ben, here's a situation for you:

Your best friend is mightily pissed at some guy. He's talking about going over to his house and killing him. What are your options?

A.)You can try to talk him out of it and make him see reason by saying, "Oh, it's no big deal. Just let it go." (Prong or e-collar correction that is too mild...a nagging correction that will be ineffective).

B.)You can try to talk him out of it by punching him in the face for his stupidity, and the guy takes out his aggression on you and you get your ass kicked by your best friend (Prong or e-collar correction that is too high).

C.) You can talk him out of it, make him see reason, remind him of the consequences. You're forceful enough to make him see your point (prong or e-collar correction at proper levels, at the proper time).

D.) You do nothing at first, and go with your friend to the guy's house and then wait until he's in a fight. He's in the middle of trying to kill the guy and then you go up and punch him to try and break it up. The guy, blind with rage, turns around and comes after you. (Prong or e-collar correction at the wrong time).

Now, for the sake of debate, let's say you're walking along with your friend and the guy he wants to kill steps out onto the street right in front of you, with no warning. Suddenly, before you have a chance to do anything, your friend is in the middle of attempting to kill this guy. Option C is no longer an option, so you knock your friend out to prevent him from killing the guy (Dominant Dog collar). It may not have been the way you would have liked to handle the situation, but it was that or let him kill the guy. Given the alternative, you did the right thing.

And frankly, some rare dogs (and some people) are just too hot-headed or dominant to be talked out of anything. Their response to Option C would be, "Oh yeah? You're telling ME what to do? I'll kick your ass, too!"

For some dogs, there just is NO other option besides the DD collar, unless you want to call euthanization an option.

If you've never had to work with these dogs, it's not suprising. Most pet dogs are not like this. But you're lucky. If you don't think you need a dominant dog collar then you're probably right. Because if you encountered a dog who really needed one--I'm betting you'd kiss your theories good-bye and wish to God that you had one.

So yes, technically, other corrective measures besides a DD collar can be effective for certain kinds of aggression, IMO, if done at the proper level at the proper time, in a CONTROLLED situation (Option C). This is the work I'm doing with my GSD now for severe dog aggression (with the e-collar) and it's proving to be very effective. But you'd better believe I have a DD collar on him too, just in case.

In my above post, i mentioned the Stopping of a Dog which is being aggressive by using a DD collar which is okay and i have no illusions that it works,
But no one has answered my bit regards the Dog acting aggressive the next day or whenever.
No one can say that by using the DD collar once and getting the desired result will change a Dogs attitude forever and the way it is with its aggressive nature,
I really cannot see how it can be so cut and dried, If you have to continually correct a Dog like that all its life then it cannot be good for the owner, and more so it is not fair on the Dog,
There are some Dogs which cannot be changed no matter what any may say on here, It is the same with humans,when they are evil people some you will not change, it happens in all species
The way i read through some posts is that all you have to do in effect is to wave a magic wand and all Dogs will become The way the Owner wants them to be, Its just not realistic

 Quote: Steve Patrick

But no one has answered my bit regards the Dog acting aggressive the next day or whenever.
No one can say that by using the DD collar once and getting the desired result will change a Dogs attitude forever and the way it is with its aggressive nature,
I really cannot see how it can be so cut and dried,

I don't think any of us are saying it is a one time thing. Some dogs, yep...they get it and they don't do it again. And some dogs will try several times and some will always try, no matter what.

I do not see where anyone says it is cut a dry, we just did not go into discussion about a timetable, because, really, there isn't one.

It depends on the handler/trainer, the dog and the amount of time that is dedicated to the dog and it's training.

 Quote: steve patrick

In my above post, i mentioned the Stopping of a Dog which is being aggressive by using a DD collar which is okay and i have no illusions that it works,
But no one has answered my bit regards the Dog acting aggressive the next day or whenever.
No one can say that by using the DD collar once and getting the desired result will change a Dogs attitude forever and the way it is with its aggressive nature,
I really cannot see how it can be so cut and dried, If you have to continually correct a Dog like that all its life then it cannot be good for the owner, and more so it is not fair on the Dog,
There are some Dogs which cannot be changed no matter what any may say on here, It is the same with humans,when they are evil people some you will not change, it happens in all species
The way i read through some posts is that all you have to do in effect is to wave a magic wand and all Dogs will become The way the Owner wants them to be, Its just not realistic

Steve, that's the whole point. They need to wear it for those "what if" situations. No one is saying that the dog is "fixed" after the correction. Au contraire. Simply that the dog is not attacking THAT person/animal at THAT time. It's an emergency device, not a one-time quick fix.

I cannot think of anything I have ever only corrected a dog once for and never had the dog repeat the behaviour again, running the gamut from a crooked sit to dominant/aggressive behaviour.

 Quote: susan tuck

I cannot think of anything I have ever only corrected a dog once for and never had the dog repeat the behaviour again, running the gamut from a crooked sit to dominant/aggressive behaviour.

Me either.....however, sometimes it may happen. Did not want to leave it out and then get a correction myself.....