Oh, boy. I go away for one day and look what happens...

Bill, let's see: you are not an advocate of the full mouth bite and you believe that dogs differentiate between live ammo and blanks (and your point is?)

Are you, by any chance, from Australia? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If we're going with the conventional drive definitions then please correct me if I'm wrong in the following scenario. Someone hits me and my pup charges across the room and bites them - multiple times. They come up to me and either hit or push me again. Again she runs across the room and bites - not hanging on, but biting and releasing and biting again. Is this considered prey drive? (And no, I don't believe she'll be a protection dog with no training).

Don't the majority of people train with conventional methods? Why then are there so many poorly trained protection dogs, etc.? The real proof is in the dogs themselves, not the rhetoric behind it, isn't it? Are conventional methods/knowledge really such an absolute? I find that hard to fathom.

Hi Catherine,

I'm just curious. How old is your puppy, and what breed is it? If you mentioned before, I must have missed it.

Catherine,

This could be prey drive in a playful mode. Part of it depends on the circumstances. With our Giant if my wife and I are playing around he will push in between us and sometimes nip me to stop our slapping or wrestling. Puppies don't engage in this type of defensive behavior. It would not be in their "best survival intrests". A puppy will run in a truly threatening situation. Puppies will not stand and fight in threatening situation, they don't have the "tools" to do it.

As for your second question, think about what you have seen in this thread again. There is no method of "certifing" trainers. All you need to do is decide to train and get someone to pay you. You can get a dog to look good fairly easily, in a short period of time. The dog can't do the work, but it doesn't matter if the client doesn't know the difference. Another easy thing to do is buy a trained dog and pass it off as your training. When the client's dogs don't turn out you can always blame the client. They just didn't do it right. I have seen "trainers" ruin dogs by pursuing their great new ideas. Using cattle prods to "teach" the out, training only in defense, a lot of things.

When I selected my current trainer I "interviewed" 5 different trainers before I selected the trainer I use. The one before that, I interviewed 3 before settling on a trainer. The one before that I couldn't find what I needed in a trainer, but I know enough I only really need the trainer for their aggitators. I frequently went totaly against his advice. He had some strange ideas, like the time he started pointing a blank gun at my dog. Twice I asked him nice not to do it, the third time I gave the dog a hit command for the unprotected trainer, he never forgot again. There are a lot of people that think they know what they are doing based on some limited success.

I know a lot about protection work, but I would never try to train someone else's dogs. I don't have enough "leash" time for it. I watch what goes on and make some suggestions, but I am not going to try and take a dog from start to finish other than my own. My deficiency is that I haven't had enough problems to problem solve someone else's dog in protection. In some other areas I am very comfortable,but not protection.

You have to know your limits!!

Sharon,

I have a 7 month old Dutch Shepherd. Wonderful dog (in my non-biased opinion).

Richard,

So there's 'serious' prey and 'play' prey? I've had a couple of other dogs that would nip at two people pushing at each other, but she wasn't doing that. She was biting hard and it sure looked like she was serious (this person had bruises).

You're right about trainers - anyone can claim they are one. I'm having trouble finding one that I like and am still looking.

Catherine,

Play can get really rough with puppies, they don't know their own "strengh". If you watch dogs play it is often very rough, they have a very high pain tolerance. You have to teach them to play gently with you.

E-mail me privatly, I know several outstanding trainers all over the State of California.

I stated earlier to Vince that I didn't think we would agree on this subject, so I was done. However, I do have another question.

Have you ever seen a GSD or Malinois fully trained in protection, tracking, agility, and drug detection that was trained completlely without a ball, toy, or food reward? A dog that would target a weaponed hand as opposed to an empty one, deploy through smoke, and lay down next to a young kid to be petted?

Kevin Scott writes: A dog that would target a weaponed hand as opposed to an empty one, deploy through smoke, and lay down next to a young kid to be petted?
*** What does any of this have to do w/ this topic? Other than it is a bunch of crap that doesn't mean anything when it comes to training. When was the last time you had to deploy your civilian dog through smoke??...ummm NEVER. The weapon hand..don't make me laugh. This is such a overstated, unrealistic bunch of junk that was never put to work. Some departments, I believe mostly in Canada, tried it and found it was a failure. You must watch TV and think everyone can shoot well and a single bullet can always kill someone. There are sooooo many reason why the weapon hand is stupid, but before explaining so many of them, why does it matter??? If the guy has a gun, why send the dog?.. Knife, sword, baseball bat, 2x4, pipe, etc. Most times it is NOT a dog deployment. There are times when yes, it does work and dogs are deployable, but most times it is not. The smoke..that part is just too funny. Makes for a great promo video or spectacle, but really....
Kids petting the dog, what's the big deal about that. While there are some dogs who do not like to be, most are just fine w/ it. 98% of the patrol dogs I train go to the DARE classes and have kids pet them....so your point being??