Quote: randy allen

That Joy, was what I was going to say.
All this gnome stuff can be interesting, IF that what was in question.
Can we get back to temperament? That's what we were all talking about.

Actually, the thread was about working vs show and specifically questioned the differences in coat lengths of Corgis.

Here is where I got the info on the dominant and recessive coat lengths. You will note that the first example is of Collies. So I was correct. Two Rough Collies can't produce a Smooth, unless the Smooth is not genetically short coated, but has some reason the coat growth was suppressed.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/coatType.html

I am still searching for any studies involving temperament linked to coat length and type. I can't say I ever saw such a study, but many people I have spoken to have noticed temperament differences. And I have seen it in my many years of dog training. But since there are environmental reasons that can account for this, the jury is still out. (Unless a study was done that I am unaware of, which is very possible.)

 Quote: randy allen

That Joy, was what I was going to say.
All this gnome stuff can be interesting, IF that what was in question.
Can we get back to temperament? That's what we were all talking about.

Randy, as to temperment I do know there is an article out there somewhere that connects the red/blonde color in spaniel coats to more instances of Rage syndrome.
Can't for the life of me remember where I read it though.

Yes Joy,
The thread was about Corgi's.
And YOU said it's widely known that longer hair dogs have milder temperaments.
I keep asking you to qualify that statement. And you instead want to ramble about some off the topic gnome project. Whether or not rough can produce smooth coats in collies is completely off topic Joy.
If you want to pretend you never made such a ridiculous statement as:
" Since there often seems to be somewhat of a personality difference between the longer coats and short coats from those breeds that have different coat length. At least some of the genes that control personality might be in close proximity to the genes that control coat length.

In many breeds, the longer coats (whether actually long or just plush) seem to often go with mellower dogs."

fine by me, just keep talking about L's and I's and how the two shall never meet.

 Quote: randy allen

Yes Joy,
The thread was about Corgi's.
And YOU said it's widely known that longer hair dogs have milder temperaments.
I keep asking you to qualify that statement. And you instead want to ramble about some off the topic gnome project. Whether or not rough can produce smooth coats in collies is completely off topic Joy.
If you want to pretend you never made such a ridiculous statement as:
" Since there often seems to be somewhat of a personality difference between the longer coats and short coats from those breeds that have different coat length. At least some of the genes that control personality might be in close proximity to the genes that control coat length.

In many breeds, the longer coats (whether actually long or just plush) seem to often go with mellower dogs."

fine by me, just keep talking about L's and I's and how the two shall never meet.

Please reread my posts. In fact, reread the part you quoted from me. I never said "it's widely known that longer hair dogs have milder temperaments." I have continued to say that I have seen such a connection, and that I have heard the same from many others.

Many on a GSD genetics group and a GSD chat group I am on, have observed the phenomena and commented on it in the group. And that many trainers I have known over the years have commented on the phenomenom too. I have not stated that the characteristic has been studied by geneticists, and have admitted that the characteristic could be the result of (1) environment (how people raise and treat long coats vs short coats; or (2) the result of those selecting for one trait also selecting for the other.

Unless you have something else to ask me regarding this, something else to comment on regarding this, or news information to impart on this; I don't know what more I can say on the subject. A discussion has to be more than rehashing the same statements again and again. If you want me to continue the discussion on coat vs temperament, bring something else into the discussion to comment on.

And I don't believe going into coat genetics to be off topic.

Okay Joy,
As you're a breeder and trainer of over 3,000 dogs, I'll ask again; what breeds have you seen a notable difference in temperament from their shorter haired litter mates?

 Quote: randy allen

... As you're a breeder and trainer of over 3,000 dogs, I'll ask again; what breeds have you seen a notable difference in temperament from their shorter haired litter mates?

Actually, this probably is going to be best answered by long-time breeders.

Joy has been breeding for decades, and I know we have several others on the board --- of several breeds. I'd like to hear from you breeders what you have observed in your own breeds.

This is interesting!

Long coats may well signal a difference in temperament.

Temple Grandin has done a lot of research in to animal behavior. Some of it has been to validate or disprove old stockmen's tales about how color or hair whorls indicate temperament.

She has an interesting article on the effect of depigmentation and it's relationship to behavior.

http://www.grandin.com/welfare/genetics.animal.welfare.html
(scroll down to the section titled,
DEPIGMENTATION, BEHAVIOR, AND DEFECTS

The ban on white shepherds may have some genetic basis after all.

In her article on Hair Whorls,
http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html
(short version: Hair Whorls above the eyes == excitable horse or cow)

She notes that the hair and skin are formed at the same time during fetal development. In another paper, she commented that the melanine molecules responsible for coloration also use the same precursor molecules needed the nervous system development. (Can't find that just now.)

This paper also notes the temperament difference between fine-boned and heavy-boned specimens in a breed. Generally, fine-boned is more flighty. (Am Shep vs DDR?)

For Shepherds, the sable coat color seems to signal the following, ( from http://www.arlett.de/sables/index.html , a German breeder and SV Conformation Judge)

 Quote:

Those peculiarities that I have noticed in over twenty years of breeding experience and that could eventually be related to the sable color, start at the birth.

At this point, I would like to encourage the readers to exchange experiences if they coincide with mine.

Once again, I must stress that I am referring to my own personal experiences only made with dogs from my own personal breeding stock.

Peculiarities seen with sable pups as opposed to black & brown pups:

-- The weight at birth is usually on average a little higher than the black & brown pups.

-- Clearly higher vitality.

-- Lower mortality during the first ten days.

-- Higher weight when tattooed.

-- Less heat sensitivity for pups as well as for the adult dogs on shows as well as on working dog trials.

-- Lower susceptibility for rashes.

-- I have never observed bright claws.

-- More often black spots on or below the tongue.

-- I have never observed bright lips or gums. White hair in the ears is extremely rare.

-- Almost all sable females and many black & browns stemming from sables, additionally feed their pups out of their own stomach (throwing up food) in a rather pronounced way.

Thank-you Charlie,
You did the homework for what I initationaly chimed in on this thread about.
If this or that are selected for.....what do we (and the dog) lose?

 Quote: Charlie Snyder

http://www.grandin.com/welfare/genetics.animal.welfare.html
(scroll down to the section titled,
DEPIGMENTATION, BEHAVIOR, AND DEFECTS

The ban on white shepherds may have some genetic basis after all.

White shepherds have white hair, but well bred ones have dark pigmentation: back noses, black tummies, black pads/nails and this is looked for in the breed standard.

Temple is speaking of skin pigment, not hair color:

QUOTE: It is important, however, to differentiate between depigmentation and white animals that are fully pigmented. Arab horses and Brahman cattle have light hair and dark skin. These animals are not depigmented.

 Quote: randy allen

Okay Joy,
As you're a breeder and trainer of over 3,000 dogs, I'll ask again; what breeds have you seen a notable difference in temperament from their shorter haired litter mates?

I am NOT a breeder! I am a guide dog and service dog trainer, and have trained pets, assisted during apprenticeship with training bomb detection dogs, behavioral modification and rehab, have been a consultant for behavioral issues with a couple of small zoos, and trained wolves and wolfdogs.

As I stated in a previous post on this thread, "I have been a guide dog trainer for decades, though I retired several years ago, due to pressure from former clients whose dogs were aging and needed new guide dogs trained, I came out of retirement and am training GDs again. I first started learning at "The Seeing Eye" in 1969. I see that for some reason I said I was a guide dog breeder in the comment to that article. I don't remember writing breeder and must have been preoccupied and slipped up, as I am NOT a guide dog breeder, or a breeder of any kind."

To answer your question; I have seen a difference in prey drive, not temperament, in GSD especially. I said that the coated GSD tend to be mellower. That is less a temperament difference as much as a drive difference. But I emphasize prey drive rather than other drives as it is the drive I have seen the greatest difference in. This in no way means I think that coated GSDs all have less prey drive, or that they are in any way less capable. I have trained them successfully as GDs which need a high work drive but low prey drive. I have seen a difference in drives of the short coat vs coated in the Belgian Shepherd, the Corgi, the Collie, the Weimeraner, the Dachshund, and one that is now two breeds but was once two coat varieties of the same breed. The German Shorthair Pointer vs the German Wirehair Pointer.

Those are the only ones I have had direct experience with, but I've only trained a single long haired Weimeraner, and a single coated Corgi. So that is far from conclusive.

But whether these differences are due to genetic linkage, I don't know. As I stated previousl;, it could be due to a difference in how they are raised and treated by many people, or that those breeders who selectively breed for coat, also select for a mellower dog.

And a correction. I said almost 3000 dogs, not over 3000 dogs. I generally just say over 2000, as I stopped counting at that figure.