One of the givens is that you're working to keep him under threshold (and calm) while you're teaching him what you expect - that a glance is rewarded as he turns his attention back toward the handler. It's just like training any other behavior - if your dog can't handle it you're moving too fast.

Once he thoroughly understands the game, then he starts to understand that he doesn't need to react, and his mental state has changed from a "how do I handle this" to "wow, it's another chance to get rewarded"

I think it really teaches unsure dogs how to handle a situation. Instead of "don't look, don't look, don't look" it becomes "take a glance, get rewarded and lets get on with life"

So you would still use distance for his threshold Mara?

 Quote: steve strom

Theresa, I'm skimming a lot so I don't know exactly what you've been doing, but just a couple of points I saw. Dogs act in thier own self interest. They don't protect you unless it serves them and they've been trained. Rocky is doing what he's doing out of fear. There's probably some prey drive kicking in here and there, but the reacting and lunging at what he see's as a threat comes from fear.

I wouldnt encourage him to look at something you want him to ignore and then reward him. I would worry that your teaching him he can do what he wants and give his attention back to you when he feels like it.

I would teach him to leave it. Especially the donkey. I think thats something dangerous for him so he'd be corrected every time he looks at him.

Rocky is a dog, not one of your kids. Experiencing things is different for him. I would stop the comparisons and never mind trying to figure out dominant, pack leader, etc...

Figure out exactly what you want Rocky to do, and train for it. All the other stuff falls into place if he is obedient.

Thank you Steve for succinctness and brevity where I have used neither!

Bulletproof ob learned without distraction and then practiced (here it comes again) outside his reactive zone is indeed going to help a lot of the issues drop away.

The reactive zone shrinks as the dog learns new behaviors, as he learns that his trigger is not after him at all, as he learns that he can take his cue from the human working with him (a calm, upbeat cue) ....

Theresa, the dog perceives that he's on his own. He's anxious and fearful and reactive (all this came up on page 1 here) and is obviously not looking to you for his reaction. But Steve is right that we're way off in the weeds stuck on theory and terminology, and even on nuanced protocol that is best left to an experienced reader of dogs.

Please, there has long been a protocol of this board's that aggressive-dog owners posting for help not be answered by inexperienced folks. We can all help each other, but that stops short at the aggressive-dog area.

This thread isn't in the "aggression" forum, so I think there was blurring because of that, but please remember that if you are new and aggro-inexperienced, it's dangerous to be giving advice to someone else in the same situation. A couple of folks here have not been at all misleading about their lack of experience, but when it comes to aggression, "not misleading" is not enough. We need to begin with "I have no experience with this except the one dog I am trying this with right now."

Please don't anyone feel attacked over this. It's an old long-standing policy, and a couple of folks on the thread are fairly new, so we all understand that it's just a sincere desire to help and to share what you have recently read or seen. Kudos for that!

I use distance. I reward curiosity, not reactivity. If we have gotten in too close, or Jethro has reacted, I have to switch gears. What I have noticed with Jethro, though, is that he is having a lot less incidents of over-reaction (barking and lunging) to everyday phenomena outside. This includes his level of reactivity to life on the street when he is in the house.

I agree, if you are rewarding reactivity, that is what you are going to get. It is all about reading your dog and working with a calm state of mind, reinforcing a calm state of mind.

This morning's example is a case in point. Jethro and I are walking beside a field. There are dogs playing on the field. We are separated from the field by a chain link fence. Back in the day, this would have been a big problem, and I would have had to a) move over one block to avoid the situation entirely, or b) walk on the other side of the street at a good clip with a lot of leave its and leash pops for unwanted attention. This morning we walked right beside the fence on the sidewalk. Jethro was Looking, but not reacting. The two dogs that were playing broke off from their antics to come and investigate. Jethro waited for Sniff Time and had little sniff through the fence and we were on our way (no fence fighting). As we moved away, I clicked him for looking back and he turned for his treat. By the time we got to the corner, Jethro had put himself into a close Heel and was giving me his full attention. No barking, lunging, or unwanted fixated attention. Ah.

It might not be an option for the OP. I can't imagine living with 9 people in a 650 sq ft house and a 16 month rottweiler.

I've learned to do this through trial and error, and I spend a lot of time with my dogs. I've done a lot of reading and watching videos, and it has taken months (and will probably take years) for me to learn what modest handling skills I have now.

"Jethro was Looking, but not reacting."


What if he looked and reacted?

 Quote: steve strom

So you would still use distance for his threshold Mara?

Yes. The idea of "look at that" is a way to teach him what you expect/what is rewarded - calm glances. But like everything else it's taught with baby steps and setting the dog up for success.

 Quote: mara jessup

 Quote: steve strom

So you would still use distance for his threshold Mara?

Yes. The idea of "look at that" is a way to teach him what you expect/what is rewarded - calm glances. But like everything else it's taught with baby steps and setting the dog up for success.

"One of the givens is that you're working to keep him under threshold (and calm)"

So just to be 100% clear, the dog is still outside his reactive zone? Just as he is when working (as I believe he should be) on basic ob or focus outside the reactive zone (of a fearful/reactive dog)?

I guess what I don't like about it Jenny, is that it doesnt fit with some things I think are important. It seems like a very ambigous command that he can interpret any way he wants. Look at that seems to give him permission to think for himself. To me thats a release.

That release is when they are allowed to check things out and sniff and look. Maybe at a distance or if I decide they're ok, right up close. All up to me.

When I say Look, that means one thing only. If I say find it, that only means one thing. Not look at the donkey then me when your ready. Letting him offer attention or any behavior, really, when he decides to just isnt the way I'm comfortable with when it comes to these kind of things. I know different things work for different dogs and some people are better with the methods, but i just would worry that the dog would lose the sense of I have to do this at the wrong time.

 Quote: mara jessup

 Quote: steve strom

So you would still use distance for his threshold Mara?

Yes. The idea of "look at that" is a way to teach him what you expect/what is rewarded - calm glances. But like everything else it's taught with baby steps and setting the dog up for success.

I just don't want to put a command to something like that Mara.

 Quote: steve strom

... Figure out exactly what you want Rocky to do, and train for it. All the other stuff falls into place if he is obedient.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

And of course, making his basic ob bulletproof at home, inside and out, can and should go on every day.

Distractions might slowly rise to the level of chickens doing chicken-stuff 5 feet away, for example.

This is a topic that might be a good place to hover for a while. I see it brought up regularly, but not really discussed.

We've learned in the course of the thread that no, his ob is not perfect (or even close) and that he basically has none under distraction (like many dogs!).