You need to start wth the marker dvd, THEN the tug dvd will make much more sense when you see how it is properly used for marker training.

Thanks Duane

I will look at that one then.

Cheers

Re: plug-ins. I really like them for some circumstances - where the dog is too wound up or for some issues like noise phobia.

But I'm guessing your biggest issue is that he needs structure and exercise.

So one may help, but don't let it become a crutch and think your issues are solved if he does settle a bit. He still needs lots of structure, training, boundaries and exercise - those are going to be the biggest key in creating a good dog.

Really like the latest video you posted - you two are on the right track.

Just a quick question Duane, if i am out on the field and i try to give my dog a treat, i could put it under his nose and he wouldn't take it, his focus is on playing, can this dvd be done with toys instead of treats?

Thanks Mara

He will settle when the house is not crazy with kids, Like today he has been dosing around all day no problem. I have increased his excercise a little, he is now doing about 45 minutes in the morning and 1.5hrs in the evening. I try training with him 5 days a week, as two days i sleep at work so my girlfriend walks him. He also will go for little walks in the day. Since joining this forum recently i have looked at how i am training him and feel i am making more progress now than i have with the 5 months at his OB classes. As pointed out by you guys the dog is motivated, but i need to get him to listen to me, which he is now beginning to do, i definately think playing tug has helped me there. Also in the house he is getting more obedient and is calmer. We are all getting him to sit, down etc for attention and so on, even the kids, so there are improvement there as well. So after being here for a short time i feel great strides have been made and the future is beginning to look a little rosier.

Thanks Everyone

The basics are usually done with food because most dogs will focus better. You can start indoors with the fundamentals, if he will work for food there. I would at least try a couple of things to see if he will work for food at all. Food is better for luring and shaping. Try withholding a meal and see if that creates some drive for the food.
Every dog is different. I would suggest watching the marker dvd asap, and then determine which is the best way to proceed from this point. You are starting with an older dog who may have some elements of a foundation already.

This is only MY opinion. Others may have input about this.

Thanks Duane

 Quote: Duane Hull

The basics are usually done with food because most dogs will focus better. You can start indoors with the fundamentals, if he will work for food there. I would at least try a couple of things to see if he will work for food at all. Food is better for luring and shaping. Try withholding a meal and see if that creates some drive for the food.
Every dog is different. I would suggest watching the marker dvd asap, and then determine which is the best way to proceed from this point. You are starting with an older dog who may have some elements of a foundation already.

This is only MY opinion. Others may have input about this.

I feel strongly about starting with the Power of Markers for the basics (or, for someone with some marker understanding, Power of Food) before Power of Tug.

They're in order for good reasons, and one of them, as Duane says, is that the fundamentals are laid so readily with food. They build on each other.

Indoors, no distraction ..... there won't be any outdoor scents and sights (and the excitement of playing with a toy reward, either) to take his mind off the HV food. Food works for luring, for shaping, and most of all (IMO) for the repetitions needed.

There's a place for each. But not to learn with food, IMO, is not to learn the basic foundation.

The DVD addresses dogs with little food drive. HV food rewards, no distractions, upbeat sessions before meals .... these will overcome that low food drive.


I agree strongly with Duane: "I would suggest watching the marker dvd asap."

yeah , things are looking good there brian the game is developing nicely .

here's a tip though . . .

after he outs , and you present him with the toy to strike again , two things :

( a ) " yes " , the mark , is used to signify to the dog that the last behaviour performed , the out , was correct and you will now get your reward .

( b ) when you present him with the tug make sure it is moving away from the dog in a straight line . it should not be moving towards the dog at all , as you are doing in the video . it seems like a small point , but the dogs' drive is stimulated by chasing the item . jamming it into his mouth does not create the same feeling for the dog .


keep up your efforts , i like where this is going

I'll throw something else out there. Food is good, toys are good. But Border Collies also want to work for YOU. Many of them enjoy learning for the sake of learning. They enjoy the mental challenge of figuring something out. It's intrinsically rewarding to many of them. It's kind of an anomaly in the dog world, but they were bred that way much more than other breeds.

I use food and toys often with my current two. They love it and it works great. But my first dog just wanted to work for me. The first few years I'd try to use food and her whole attitude was - "well, okay, if taking food makes you happy I'll do it" I tried several different things and her food drive really didn't pop until I got another dog and she had competition. But she picked things up like a sponge. So absolutely try to build his food drive, but if after a few weeks it doesn't seem to be working then I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm seeing a dog that is extremely focused on you in the videos. I'm seeing a dog that might pick up on what you want very quickly since you've put yourself back in the place of leadership "yes, I want you to do that, no, I don't want you to do that"

I don't want to detract from what the others are saying, because I do agree with it (re, foundation work with food, marker training being the basis of setting up a communication system with your dog), etc). But I did want to throw that other thought out there because, well, Border Collies can be very unique like that.