PEOPLE are not selectively bred to be any one certain way. They haven't been since slavery ended. Comparing human beings to dog breeding is completely irrelevant.

And yet every time I engage in conversation on a dog forum I feel like becoming a Eugenicist, lol

Mr Finley, I will add that I showed in the breed ring, not GSDs, for 10-15 yrs. I finished four different terrier breeds to their CH titles. I also competed in AKC obedinece with four different terrier breed. A few to the UD title. One to a National ranking. I also hunted with and alongside MANY terrier breeds, some not even recognized here in the States as breeds. These were natural hunting trips with the dogs going into natural earths to engage the quarry, not just terrier trials where the dogs barks at a caged rat at the end of a wooden, man made tunnel.
The difference between show and working lines are great but nothing like the difference in the working vs show line GSDs.
I've attended and even kept time for herding judges at herding trials. You'll see pretty much the same thing at herding trals. MOST of the show line dogs don't work up to the level of the dogs that actually do the work on a ranch or farm.
O could go on and on about the differences in show vs working breeds in many different breeds that I've personally seen and/or worked with.
I've been involved with showing, sport, and working line dogs for 50+ yrs. Again, look for more then what you see with "the dog in front of you". It's out there!

 Quote: Katie Finlay

Where does he talk about how the working ability was judged? He only talks about how conformation was judged and how correct conformation assumes proper working condition.

He talks about much more than conformation. Nerves, disposition, endurance, etc. You can find literally hundreds of quotes from his book with regards to that. Here is one from the beginning of that same chapter:

 Quote:

shy weak-nerved animals are to be marked as injurious to the breed, even as over-bred dogs that are not true to the racial type, whose height reaches or even exceeds the total length. In addition to a good shepherd dog expression, a lively disposition, a long solid well-knit body suitably-proportioned for service, not spongy nor bulky, whose form guarantees a stretching out and swift gait, with powers of endurance are among the very first qualifications.

 Quote: Katie Finlay

The fact still remains that he never worked any of his dogs. I can't rely on someone who has never worked a dog to judge my dogs or decide what characteristics are needed for the work.

I can't find any references to him never working any of his dogs. Where did you find them? That being said, I also can't find any reference to him actually working his dogs either! However, I tend to trust the founder of the entire breed of the German Shepherd Dog to give me some greater knowledge of my favorite type of dog. I have read the book and still go over it all the time, finding new words of wisdom every time I read it. If you do that, I sincerely doubt you will come away with the impression that Captain Max von Stephanitz was simply a man who picked out good looking dogs that were running around in a circle.

This site has a very good read on the topic that I enjoy:

http://www.gsdcqld.org.au/The.History.of.the.German.Shepherd.Dog.htm

 Quote: Duane Hull

Mr. Finley;

What is your opinion of the WUSV's emphasis on extreme angulation in its breed standard, which was adopted by the AKC and is one of the main criteria in judging conformation in GSDs?

Do you feel that the degree of angulation has an effect on the length of time that a GSD can stay engaged in extreme physical activity?

So when does a show dog become a working dog?? I had a schutzhund III "show" dog. Is it like homosexuality they can't go back once they are "show". Who decides?? Based on what?? Totally a political term without biological basis. Are "show" dogs with multiple Sch III just "passing as show" and "working" dogs rates V wanna be "show" dogs?? Does the SV recognize the distinction on pedigrees and can't a BSP dog also compete in the BSZS. How do the dogs know who they are?? Does this cause an identity crisis for a dog who thinks he is "show" to find out one of his parents were "working"??

If you have a dog that works you have a working dog, but he may not be from working bloodlines. Working dog and working line are not the same thing nor are they interchangeable.

Lee, I own and have read the book. Stephanitz never talks about working his own dogs, ever. Because he never did.

People have been doing it the Stephanitz way for years and IMO it's not going so well.

If there's no biological basis, why do you not answer my question?

Because I don't have to

Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/14/2013 04:55 PM)
Edit reason: edited

 Quote: Duane Hull

If there's no biological basis, why do you not answer my question?

Because he's avoiding the answer. He's also ignoring the studies that show genetic differences between the bloodlines.

When you get into the titles and the BSP and the SV you DO get into political factors. But if we're talking solely about pedigrees and bloodlines we don't run into politics.

 Quote: Charles Finley

Because I don't have to ....

(edited)





No name calling. No one, and this includes you, Mr. Finley.