Quote: Duane Hull

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Yes.



(I know you weren't asking me, but yes anyway. )

I was hoping that Bob and Candi would also coninue this conversation, as well. I wouldn't mind hearing what Anne thinks either.

Or anyone else, for that matter.

Duane, as only a pet owner I've been purposely taking a back-seat here, and just following what the Experts/Professionals have to offer which might have escaped me...

But since you asked me personally, here are a few things I see (most of which I think some others have already mentioned as well);

@ Her excited level of desire is a big Distraction Factor to focus on what SHE WANTS TO DO which Over-Rides Her Education, so that she goes with HER FEELINGS instead of Her Training -- In major league sports, this is commonly called "mental error" which means that in the Heat of the Moment players sometimes experience a Lapse of Judgement or "brain fart" because their ATTENTION is driven by Adrenaline Flooding that overcomes Years of Instruction allowing their "lower brain" impulses to Take Precedence over their "higher brain" learning ... This is not a case of disobedience or stubborness, but has more to do with Drive & Focus issues, IMHO

@ When you wait her out, she calms down (drive levels decrease) she again becomes aware of your expectations & then remembers what she is supposed to due & automatically complies -- This happens even without you having to give a command, let alone a correction ... Once her adrenaline rush either dissipates with time (or is more quickly over-ridden by you giving her some additional cue) then she snaps out of "distracted by excitement" mode & returns to "practiced obedience" mode

@ The expert & professional trainers here will understand & be able to expain how you can fix this, so I'm deferring to them for that fine-tuning -- Because I do not do Competition Obedience work with my pet dogs, I'm not a real stickler for automatic compliance during "casual activities" in times of Elevated Excitement, nor am I concerned about WHICH drive mode (or combo) is in play ... If my dogs "forget" to follow an automatically expected obedience step during some informal daily routine of ours (due to adrenaline flooding) I don't really mind having to cue them with a look or throat-clearing from me

 Quote: Tracy Collins

I'm a fan of the "waiting them out" school of training. If the dog knows that the sit is expected, simply wait for the sit before proceeding. They will eventually figure out that its faster to get what they want by complying than by not complying. And that's the magic I want--a dog that chooses self control.

Example: my dogs know that sitting is required while I prepare their meals. The youngest, Cinco, still sometimes wants to break the sit and come investigate, hop around doing a happy dance in anticipation of the meal. When he does, I simply stop preparing the food and stand still. When he sees that his actions are not producing food, he "remembers" what he's supposed to do and returns to the sit. I don't say a word.

He learns that the speed at which the food appears is up to him--not me.

Another excellent post, thanks, Tracy !!!

 Quote: Anne Jones

Duane my female is VERY high drive & does & wants to do everything at 100mph.

She is like your dog in the sense that she is a reactive. She is also a VERY, VERY, hard tempermented scary smart dog. She can be very manipulative if given the chance. And she wants what she wants NOW! But the way for her to get what she wants is THROUGH me.

I don’t get involved in trying to rationalize what she is thinking & why she is doing something……unless there is a physical reason for the behavior, or I am giving mixed signals or confusing my dog in some way by not making it clear what it is I want. I don’t care how high her drive, low her drive or how crazy excited she is (just an excuse) to get to the field or anywhere else…..it is my way PERIOD.

I deal with the kind of thing you are dealing with by not allowing the dog to get what she wants until I get what I want…and I can be more stubborn then she is.

My dogs also know to sit when I stop walking, whether it is when formally heeling or just taking a walk. I would stand at that curb as long as I had to until she sat. If she truly knows what it expected of her & you are not giving her any unconscious cues to step off, then I would turn around walk the other way & then back to the curb & expect a sit & do it again & yet again. She would NOT cross that street until she gave me what I want, a couple of times without having to discuss it each time we got to the curb. I would do that every time I walked her until it was really a clear automatic reflex in her mind that she sits at the curb always. Absolute consistency & vigilance on your part that you are not giving cues to her in any way contrary to what you are asking.

Not sure if this helps or not. I marker train & use corrections when needed. I don’t make any excuses for my dogs or myself when training.

Love your explanation & this fix, Anne

Candi;

IMHO, your evaluation is spot-on. That is how I was relating the behavior to myself, but your eloquence far exceeds mine. I see exactly what you're describing in her body language, as well as the fixed stare in the direction she wants to go, and the spring forward when released.

After working with her since last afternoon, I see where I need to be more consistent and more patient when pausing for her to comply. Since I've been practicing that, she has already showed signs of improvement. It is very obvious that the cues were a crutch for her, and she wasn't complying without them.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Candi;

IMHO, your evaluation is spot-on. That is how I was relating the behavior to myself, but your eloquence far exceeds mine. I see exactly what you're describing in her body language, as well as the fixed stare in the direction she wants to go, and the spring forward when released.

After working with her since last afternoon, I see where I need to be more consistent and more patient when pausing for her to comply. Since I've been practicing that, she has already showed signs of improvement. It is very obvious that the cues were a crutch for her, and she wasn't complying without them.

Glad to be of any help possible, Duane !!! Sometimes just hearing another person discuss the situation from an unexpected angle, while using a slightly different vocabulary, can highlight an "ah-so" moment

I believe what CONNIE has been alluding to in "Loading Cues" and then "Fading Cues" (if I recall her wording correctly) is a very pertinent component in this issue -- So check out her posts again where she mentions this ... And I hope Connie and/or others will Elaborate in Detail on the fine print of loading & fading cues in regard to auto-compliance (especially in Safety First situations like the curb-sit-&-wait.

ETA:

Another resource for "Curb Protocol Training" would be Guide Dogs for the Blind, Leader Dogs, Seeing Eye Dogs, etc. (think about those safety implications) -- Part of their instruction involves set-up simulations of "real life" in which the dogs are first made Highly Aware that moving vehicles are VERY DANGEROUS ... Then after they get the picture clearly to Watch Out For passing traffic, they are subsequently de-sensitized enough so as not to avoid streets & refuse to cross curbs.

I keep getting a feeling that the pattern training of SchH is coming home from the SchH club.

It's giving me problems with describing the teaching of everyday basic ob, because there's no fixed pattern in the real world, off the SchH field.



But anyway .....


" It is very obvious that the cues were a crutch for her, and she wasn't complying without them."

Standing and waiting is a cue. It's a physical cue. And that's fine. All the cues should not have been withdrawn yet.

You know how Steve sometimes posts about wanting to keep it simple? I do too. Simply stated, I pile on cues for this kind of auto-behavior. I don't withdraw them until the dog is rock solid -- completely reliable -- and even then I do it gradually.

I don't want a correction to have to stand in for a cue. That means (again simply stated) that cues were still needed.


Maybe everyone is kinda saying the same thing.

And again, this is all JMO.


ETA
I'd also add that the attention required on the SchH field is, for me, not what my dog is required to do 24/7.



Also, I think it's a good topic.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/24/2013 04:15 PM)
Edit reason: ETA

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

ETA
I'd also add that the attention required on the SchH field is, for me, not what my dog is required to do 24/7.

That is what my quandary was; I allow Sadie to get away with some things that sport trainers would frown on. One of the reasons that TD was skeptical when he met us was that Sadie was a housedog, spent a lot of time off-leash or unsupervised in the yard, and self-gratifying.

The inconsistency that I alluded to several times was not always making her wait at doors and gates, though Ed and some other trainers say that you must when dealing with a dog who has dominance issues. My frustration with the curb and tailgate behavior was the opposite; she had never been allowed to step off the curb without a sit-stop, and she had never been allowed to just exit the kennel and jump out of the truck. As many times as we've done it, I felt she should know it by now. Based on what I saw last night and this morning, she was waiting for a command or a correction.

I didn't mean inconsistency, though, when I said that that the attention required on the SchH field is, for me, not what my dog is required to do 24/7.

Not at all. Consistency is very important.

As Anne said, if she was training the curb-sit, she would stand at that curb and wait, every single time, from now until forever, and the dog would never ever proceed until she had sat at the curb.


I was thinking more about reminders and cues and how they allow the dog not to be 100% "on" 24/7, on and off the field.

This is a good topic.

About cues. A dog's life with humans is always going to filled with cues. Some are more overt-- the sound of a clicker, whistle, grunt, or a spoken command--or the touch of a hand, e-collar or leash. Standing and waiting is a cue, yes. But so is the curb itself. Or the doorway, or the dog bed in the corner.

I don't think it's possible for the dog not to have cues from the human it lives with. The goal is to transition from the human always having to "create" the cue each time the dog is presented with a choice--to having the dog see the cues for himself and make the choice to comply. It's a transition from overt cues to subtle ones. But they are always there.

 Quote: Tracy Collins

This is a good topic.

About cues.

I don't think it's possible for the dog not to have cues from the human it lives with. The goal is to transition from the human always having to "create" the cue each time the dog is presented with a choice--to having the dog see the cues for himself and make the choice to comply. It's a transition from overt cues to subtle ones. But they are always there.

This is a great post, Tracy.