totally true, connie. big savings on vet bills.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I know I'm sticking my neck out here and making kind of a broad statement, but I'm gonna do it anyway.

Aw, gee, Connie, are you afraid I'm gonna make you cite a reference? Actually, you've cited enough of what I consider serious references that I've now put you on my list of "people who've done some real research rather than just repeating what they heard from their sister's friend's cousin." You've convinced me you're not just passing on hearsay, and I hereby promise to take you seriously -- unless I have my doubts about something

I'm sure this is true, but the main reason I don't comment on it is because I've never fed my dogs a low-quality food (like Pedigree) to compare. So I personally haven't seen the drastic long-term benefits of raw that someone who for instance might have been feeding Pedigree for years, seen the effects, then switched to raw.

The lowest quality food I've EVER fed has been the Nutro (and that was hard for me to decide to do but I had to cut my feed bill down at the time to make ends meet). So I haven't seen the horrible diseases of maybe some of the other folks. But no doubt they exist.

I'm just more of a "here and now" results person... Especially for $15/day And teeth, breath, and poop are definitely "here and now"!

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jennifer Ruzsa

..... Having a very small patch of grass to use for my dogs, it was a nice feature of raw feeding. Plus my parents let me use their yard to run my dogs, and if they're on raw they don't care so much about clean-up... If the dogs are NOT on raw, then I have to hunt down a poop my dog makes an acre away.

And another big ginormous plus that we often say -- but maybe not often enough -- is that vet bills are lower with dogs who are fed real fresh food...

Sorry!
Well I agree with you as times(years) go by you learn about making life easier but I don't find feeding raw so complicated , I think Jennifer is doing what's best,it may not be the easiest thing to do with 3 dogs in an appartment but not that complicated, at least they're not big mastiffs

 Quote: Angelique Cadogan

Sorry!
Well I agree with you as times(years) go by you learn about making life easier but I don't find feeding raw so complicated , I think Jennifer is doing what's best,it may not be the easiest thing to do with 3 dogs in an appartment but not that

Hahahaha! Nope I think I'll stick with my little devils for now. I like the fact that even as adults, with their short little legs they can still ALMOST be picked up under one arm.

OK, regarding the differences in people's bone:meat ratios. Are some people taking Billinghurst 60% bone to the extreme and adding that amount in bone only? When I talk about RMB's I mean the whole wing or whole neck. Its like Jan said, that depending on terminology my 60/35/5 is almost the same as the prey model 80/10/10. I don't like beating this to death either, but alot of the confusion just seems like terminology differences.

Ummm....can I ask a question???? While everyone is arguing about ratio's, I'm still wondering what "prey model" means.

Hello....remember me???/ NEWBIE!!!!

lol

Lol, Robbin - prey model is the easiest thing to figure out for yourself.

Imagine a dead rabbit or deer or chicken; picture your dogs eating the whole animal. All you have to do is try to approximate (and I say "approximate", don't bother with ratios, your dogs will be fine) what they would get from eating the animal whole.

If you give too much meat/organs your dogs could get diarrhea and if you give too much bone, their poops will get very hard and you risk an impaction (where the bone residues block the gut).

Overall, dogs will take all the nutrition they need out of their diet. They're like us, we don't calculate ratios for our own meals and we don't end up malnourished and sick do we?

Just try to avoid extremes and adjust the diet around until you find what works best for your dogs.

The debate going on here has to do with people who follow the 50% bone and 50% meats ratios (the BARF or Billinghurst ratios, I believe) and people who feed the prey model (85% meats and 15% bones).
The BARF people also tend to feed more vegetables, whereas the prey model feeders stick to minimal veggies.
Dogs do great on both; probably a little better on the prey-model type of feeding though, hehe.

I'd recommend going with what Ed and Cindy do (prey model) - no one has as much experience as they do feeding dogs and puppies of all ages and their results speak for themselves. Their dogs turn out beautifully and are so healthy... that's good enough for me

One more thing; don't worry about trying to balance every meal.
If you happen to have meaty bones available one day, feed that and don't bother trying to add in organs and meats to fit a ratio.

At the next feeding, use more meats to compensate. If you can throw in some organs twice a week, you have pretty much everything you need! Fish and eggs are also great foods.
If you think your dogs could use healthier skins and shinier coats, increase the organs and fish in their diet (I do this in winter because it gets so cold and dry here).
During the summer when it's really hot and humid I cut down on the fattier foods.

One reason why people like to feed bones at every meal is that bones make the poop drier and easier to clean up. It's more a convenience factor, not so much a nutritional necessity to have bones at each meal

 Quote: robbinmann

Ummm....can I ask a question???? While everyone is arguing about ratio's, I'm still wondering what "prey model" means.

Hello....remember me???/ NEWBIE!!!!

lol

I'll bet this will answer everything:
http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm#barf


About prey model v. b.a.r.f., Michael Wise said this:
"OK, regarding the differences in people's bone:meat ratios. Are some people taking Billinghurst 60% bone to the extreme and adding that amount in bone only? When I talk about RMB's I mean the whole wing or whole neck. Its like Jan said, that depending on terminology my 60/35/5 is almost the same as the prey model 80/10/10. I don't like beating this to death either, but alot of the confusion just seems like terminology differences."

and Michael, I agree with you.

As Yuko said, we are all trying to feed the equivalent of a whole animal, and in fact feed the whole animal when we can.

The prey model books and sites I have read advocate zero vegetables, but what I read on this site is that prey model people are feeding occasional produce. The original Billinghurst book used quite a bit of produce, but what I read here indicates that people are using less produce.

IOW, the two diet extremes do not seem to have many adherents on this board.

I have a feeling that almost every raw feeder here is somewhere between prey model and the original b.a.r.f. book.

I too recommend using Leerburg's diet.