This has been a very interesting and informative thread.

Krista
When I picked up My Fred from the Breeder, The mother was a bit lean and her coat was not in full bloom but her pen was spotless, but she was very happy to see her Breeder when we went in there , I took note of this. But having bred & Raced, Racing Pigeons all my life, You know that when a Pair has reared two young birds for nearly a month they too will not be in the best of Shape,
Its Mother Nature telling us they have done a good job rearing there young as this bitch must have done, Should the mother have looked in show condition i would have been looking at that Pup very closely.
To my way of thinking you had no need to worry on that point

Now that is an interesting point Steve.Why would you look at the puppy closer if the bitch would have been in "show " condition?
What would have that "sign" told you?
Curious...

I have never bred Dogs, But have seen a few Bitches over the years that have and all show the signs of being a good mother with nice plump healthy babies, meaning they have given all of themselves to there Pups
If a Bitch is looking in too greater a shape after rearing a litter, i would be scepical as regards her being the mother, But to be sure a DNA test would prove it, but if that went ahead i think the outcome would be ,that this Bitch did not rear that Pup

Well I asked to see what would make you say such a statement.I think that if you see the mother looking like "show condition" and you think you need a DNA to see that she really is the mother, then I would say go somewhere else forget to bother with DNA all together if you don't trust your breeder.
My female after her pups looked as healthy as any other times in her life.I think good quality care goes a long way in breeding.In a lot of cases commercial breeders have too many breeding females to give the quality care bitches needed when they are pregnant, and due to whelp.I have only one female and she got the best care imaginable.She looked like "show condition" and she is the mother of the pups.I'll tell you this, if a female looks like she gave everything she had to her pups what kind of care did she get that she had to be deprived due to having pups?
That is not an excuse.I know that females are all different but for the most part, good care shows and always will...

I have never bred Dogs as i said but if a Bitch rears about 6 to 8 Puppies then she is certain to lose a some body weight, that is nature no matter how well the breeder looks after them. and you tell me the Bitches coat is in as a good condition after rearing the Pups to weaning as before she was mated
Most Strange' I know of no other female species of animal that does not show some effects of rearing a litter
And that goes for the Human female as well, But in most cases the Human female puts on more weight, and it is nature to all the giving Birth and rearing takes a certain amount from them or change the body shape
When i said the mother gives her all. We have a Twist of the English language again. I maintain that if the Parents Rear the young properly then it will show phisicaly on them I do not mean that they are down and out, but it certainly does show the difference to the end of rearing to the before of conception.
If a Breeder does not give the care to the Bitch whist she is in Pup or After, How can she rear Healthy Pups for him to sell the person would be a fool not to feed and care for the Bitch well, but i suppose some do try and cut corners Plus, You only get out of something what you put in to it. If you knew what i do to rear a healthy round of Racing Pigeons it would suprise you and even more so when i am conditioning them for a 600 miles Race, 4 weeks of Special feeding and Training work Ratio to feeding
One last Point, You say your dog looked like show condition after rearing a litter of Pups, Would you then have put her in a Show and Won, Indeed a wonderful thing if you could
No disrepects to you but on this point we differ

She's a working dog not a show dog and I meant show condition as a matter of fact.She did not blow her coat as you would expect and she looked great.yes she had 6 pups and she did not look skinny and disheveled as you might see in other females.Yes her tits hung down as you would expect but she looked healthy and good weight,I think when people expect the dam to look like crap just because she had pups is bunch of baloney..
A clean kennel means nothing on how healthy the dam is.
I don't want to keep re-hashing the point but I would not want a new dog owner to read this thread and think that a dam is supposed to look like crap just beacause she just had pups is the norm.I totally disagree with that myth..
I think it's cool that you take good care of pigeons and take pride in what you do as I do , not all breeders of any kind of animals or birds do the same..

Angelique
I did not say that they look like Crap. Just that you can see they have reared the Pups well or any other sort of Animal or bird.but its right we all have our opinions
When i Lived in another part of England in the county of Shropshire we had only 5 houses in a radius of 5 kms, We were surrounded by hills just under a mile high, at the back of our house was a forest about two miles round, at about 11.oclock each night i used to walk in there for nearly one mile. I had found a Foxes den and in another place a Badger Set. In turn i used to sit there for about 3 hours a night in the dark only the moon through the trees to give any light
I watched the Pair of Fox and Badgers romp around until the Vixen and the Badger gave Birth. after a time they bought the Cubs out to play I wached them all grow up, My point is this The Mothers looked great before they had the Youngsters but a little ligher and down after rearing there young, A very good time it was and well worth the time waiting to see the babies come out with the mothers, In fact i think the old ones got used to me being within yards of them, they knew i was there but carried on with what they had to do, Probably one of the most satisfying things i have done
On a lighter note, the first time i walked into that forest i got lost, and it went up hill for a fair way hundreds of Tracks all joining each other and dense in places, It was Charlie the Border Collie that got me out of it that time, but after about six to eight months i knew it like the back of my hand

 Quote: Steve Patrick

When I picked up My Fred from the Breeder, The mother was a bit lean and her coat was not in full bloom but her pen was spotless,

I did not say you said the word crap, but I wanted to get my point across on the myth people have about a female in whelp,before and after.Again all females are different.I don't want anyone to think that a clean kennel is a sign of good health but to look at the whole picture.Anyway, hard to discuss that subject through writing...

 Quote: Steve Patrick

When i Lived in another part of England in the county of Shropshire we had only 5 houses in a radius of 5 kms, We were surrounded by hills just under a mile high, at the back of our house was a forest about two miles round, at about 11.oclock each night i used to walk in there for nearly one mile. I had found a Foxes den and in another place a Badger Set.

That sounds beautiful and picture-st, I remember England and loved it , Born in France and raised , I used to go to England often my EX- Husband is english Played Rugby for England.