Steve,

This is Ed's article on Extremely Handler Aggressive Dogs:
http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm

** mod edit: Removed excerpt; please see article in entirety **



Obviously, these are for very severe cases and it may seem extreme but if the alternative is euthanization...

I post this because you asked about what you do the next day, and if it would be something that the dog would have to be corrected for all the time. It addresses those questions.

Cheers.

No one has said that using a DD collar on a dog will STOP that dog from being dominant forever.

I firmly believe that if you do have a truly Dominant dog...he is just that and always will be.

But, the difference is that he will KNOW that he is not dominant or above YOU. That is what the DD collar is used for. Its to get the point across to the dog that his behaviour is unacceptable to you as pack leader.

I m not sure if you can every truly re-form a truly dominant dog to be anything else, just like you can't take a submissive dog and make him dominant. But you do have to let him know that his dominance does not go above yours and that you control the when, where, why & how in his life.

Steve,
Your right on some points, some dogs no matter what are never going to be fit to work around or with people or animals and should either be put down or released into the wild.
But look at it like this: You have a young dog on a dragging lead, you're working/playing, its time to guit and you say enough. The dog wants to continue playing he knows what enough means, no more play. He bounces around you because he knows as soon as you get that lead game is over. How many sessions did it take for the pup to learn that? Two or three?
Like wise with a dominant/agressive dog, it doesn't take too many of the right corrections to get the message across. 'I said no' I meant it and can do something about it. It works surprisingly quick.
And we are not talking about a dog one has rised properly by the way, we are talking about dogs that from the beginning were more then the owners could handle, and then mishandled over again by ................Oh I don't know you pick and name.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

PS.
I second what Wendy Said

Edited by randy allen (12/05/2007 12:43 PM)
Edit reason: PS

Released into the wild???? Did I read that right???

 Quote: trevor morris

Released into the wild???? Did I read that right???

Yep...but it is Randy, so I would assume it was meant to be humorous if not sarcastic.......
(disclaimer: but then again it IS Randy, so I could be wrong )

 Quote: benjamin colbert

...There is nothing you could say here to convince me using it as a training collar is appropriate. That said when safety is an issue then its the handlers job to make sure no one is hurt and I can see where the DD would be effective...

Hi Ben,
I am going to chime in here. I am not a trainer, and don't pretend to be a trainer.
However, I have read all the posts about this and here's my take on what people have been telling you.

Everyone has pretty much answered with their opinion on choke collars,and I agree with all of them, choker are pretty much counter-productive.

I don't see anywhere that anyone is telling you to use a DD collar as a training collar. What they are telling you is that a DD collar is used somewhat as you use the emergency brake in your car.
When driving along and coming to a stop sign, you use your regular brake pedal. No problem, you stop and all is well.

When driving along and and coming to a stop sign, you use your regular brake pedal AND IT GOES TO THE FLOOR, BIG PROBLEM!!! Then you use your emergency brake in a careful manner and also come to a stop. No problem, but you know something needs to be fixed and pronto.

You wouldn't use your emergency brake in a normal ordinary driving situation.
You wouldn't use the DD collar in a normal ordinary training situation.

This is what the posts to answer you are telling me. Maybe I am misreading them. But I can tell you right now that I am NOT an "elitist" Quote "Its funny how the elitism bleeds through this thread."EnQuote, I'm just reading the posts.
I hope this helps to clarify things for you.

Let me just explain something a bit further.

Im not saying that a dominant dog has no place and should be thought of as a lost cause.
I was more trying to say that i feel dominance is a part of a dogs make up and will always be an underlying factor in everything he/she does.
My point was that you have to work harder & be more diligent with a dog of that type to prove your Leadership role and have him respond to you as such.

Once again I'm fine with the idea of a DD collar as an "e-brake". I've worked with dogs and in kennels, I remeber kneeing the hell out of a dog one time that was biting (punturing flesh ) another dog and I had already gotten been once trying to break it up. It worked and the dog let go.

I'm not fine with it as a training collar. Ever. I'm with Steve. There are far too many ifs here. What if Ed trains my dog with a DD collar. After a few days it never makes another aggressive motion toward Ed. How do I know that the dog has generalized that all aggressive dominant behavior to all humans is wrong? How do I know that he doesn't think he can get away with it with my girlfriend? or that he can guard or bite when its food and not a toy, or when I'm not around, or when Ed's not around?

lol...im going to assume you meant to respond to Janice's post and not mine.

I don't think anyone here thinks of the DD as a training (training as in Sit, down etc) collar. which is why everyone has said that they have 2 collars on the dog. The DD collar is on there so that if you DO need to use it for dominace/aggression its there.
You're not using the DD collar to "train" the dog to not be dominanat. The DD collar is used to re-enforce your Pack leader status with the dog. You are using it to let him know that his behaviour is unacceptable to you and if he persists there are re-purcussions.
I hope im wording this right.

And you're right, you wouldn't know that the dog wouldn't turn on you if Ed trained it using a DD collar (no offense). But you know he wouldn't turn on Ed because since Ed did use the DD collar, the dog looks to him as pack leader.
Thats why people say it is always better to train your own dog.


Edited by Wendy Lefebvre (12/05/2007 01:28 PM)
Edit reason: thought of something else.

Wendy, you should read the leerburg article. Also there is a post here that advocates using the DD collar for training.