David ,

I'm not sure where you are going with this . This discussion started out with the issue of the OP's 5 month old puppy walking behind him when they left the house on walks and then pulling him when they turned around towards the house .

Part of the training discussion at first was ;

Should a prong and corrections be used on this puppy who may have a fear of going outside away from the house ?

The discussion has evolved (though still related to the original problem) to Jennifer H.'s heavy reliance on Compulsive training and her beliefs that certain other non compulsive training styles are easy to do .

If you are under the belief that I feel compulsive training or corrections in training are bad period , you are mistaken . I use compulsive training and corrections in my training . I use motivational training also and from my experiance I've found that when using motivational training (as much as possible) to reach a goal , I get better results .

Jennifer H . stated;

 Quote:

With the majority of the dogs I train, No I don't use any treats, I don't do marker training. I use only praise, that is the only reward, I want the dog to work for the handler, not for toys or food! I use a method called compulsion training. It is a very good method, used by some world-class trainers, and it requires no treat bribes or toys. It is simple- the dog either performs or doesn't, it makes a choice, and it then receives either the benefits or the correction.

I physically manipulate dogs to teach them positions, which also teaches a dog that I can control it physically, very important. Then many repetitions.

Jennifer H. ,

I've been using what I thought was Compulsion Training for years and so have some of the others in this discussion . It was the widest form of dog training that I knew of for years but training has advanced since then and there are now many other forms of training along with Compulsion Training that we can use to reach our desired goals .

You however are making it sound like some hidden underground secret that's been used by the worlds best trainers and only now is the general public being made aware of it. The way you talk about it I'm actually starting to doubt I've actually been using Compulsion Training , but the general way you've described it so far it seems like the same thing I've been doing for years .

Could you explain to me in more detail how you use it , say in teaching a dog to sit ?

Jim,

Not a huge forum poster, more a reader and now I know why LOL.

Guess where I was trying to go is that from my "limited experience", while both methods will produce results, the motivational method is harder from the standpoint of getting the timing and markers right, but it is a lot more forgiving. Compulsion does produce results and very quick, but what I have experienced is that the dog is more withdrawn and is somewhat "gun shy" in that they are waiting for the next correction versus looking for something positive and motivational.

For me personally, I would classify myself as a "pet owner" right now, but hopefully will get into some type of sport once I can get some things under control. Just to make that clear so people know where I am coming from. My perspective that I was weighing in on was from that viewpoint.

Also reading many of the posts, it seemed like there were only 2 camps -- motivational or compulsion. IMO and as you stated, both methods are valid and need to be used appropriately based on the situation, action and dog.

Also, why I chimed in but didn't state this initially (thinking it but didn't write it) is that Sasha used to do the same thing stated in the OP, walk good going away from the house, but pull going back towards it. A prong probably won't help with the real issue which may be fear. Hopefully with a little work now on helping the dog get over their fear before they turn into a nut-case with agression would be much better. While compulsion may fix the outward signs, it will not fix the root cause.

Well I've probably gone off topic even more, so I'll go back to lurking, reading and learning (LOL).

Take care,
Dave

David ,

I wasn't trying to deter you from posting and your viewpoint is very valid having had such a similiar experiance as the OP .

 Quote:

Also reading many of the posts, it seemed like there were only 2 camps -- motivational or compulsion. IMO and as you stated, both methods are valid and need to be used appropriately based on the situation, action and dog.

I was hoping folks weren't getting that impression . Thanks for pointing that out . I'm sure you weren't the only one getting that impression .

 Quote:

While compulsion may fix the outward signs, it will not fix the root cause.

You come up with something like this and you want to go back to lurking ?! Please don't .

 Quote: david walter

... Also reading many of the posts, it seemed like there were only 2 camps -- motivational or compulsion.

I'm sorry about that too.

Several posts presented the opinion that a prong is a good tool but that some long-experienced forum members were reading something that might not call for a prong solution:

... make no mistake, I'm not against pinch collars at all .... As I read the op though, the dog only pulls toward home and prefers to walk to the rear otherwise. Just doesn't sound as clear cut as the puppy is pulling me everywhere scenerio. For the moment I would rather see the prongs put away for when the dog is somewhat more sure of himself. (Randy)

I agree with the other posters, though, that maybe you need to address why the dog seems reluctant to leave the house/yard. ... (Kori)

I am also a strong advocate of the prong collar but to me this situation sounds more like a puppy training issue. (Chris)

There was some polarizing after the old thread was resurrected with comments equating the prong with training:

I'm confused. Why don't some of use use pinch collars on dogs who are 5 months? You think that is too young to train them? ... And yes, a prong collar is a training necessity IMO.

Further polarizing may have come about with:

I use a method called compulsion training. It is a very good method .... it requires no treat bribes or toys. .... most people don't even understand the method or they don't have the skill needed to use it properly. At least with treat and click method anyone can use it and its harmless, requires no skill and easy to learn.


It would be great if the thread returned to the O.P. (if such an old thread is even viable). It was a request for advice from someone waiting for the Leerburg Basic Ob video #302, which is, of course, marker-training based, to arrive. His post was clearly asking for input "until I watch the video."

Dave's posts (like many others) addressed the O.P. thoughtfully and without a segue into why the methods in the video the O.P. chose to use "require no skill", unlike "a method called compulsion training. It is a very good method, used by some world-class trainers, and it requires no treat bribes or toys."

There is no one on this thread who does not comprehend compulsion training (and very few who have not used it for years or decades). So let's return to the O.P.

 Quote: Jim Nash

 Quote:

While compulsion may fix the outward signs, it will not fix the root cause.

You come up with something like this and you want to go back to lurking ?! Please don't .

Agreed!

This has been an interesting thread. The original post was made 6 months ago...
Here's the same dog now...
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/206414/page/0/fpart/1

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

This has been an interesting thread. The original post was made 6 months ago...
Here's the same dog now...
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/206414/page/0/fpart/1

Yes, that's another interesting thread.

Let's not mix up comments between the two, which I know that Lynne is not doing. (Folks new to the thread who read the O.P. here should be able to continue through seeing posts that at least relate to the O.P. about a prong for a 4-month-old pup whose owner is using the LB video #302.)

Yes, sorry! Not meant to confuse anyone!

I'm so confused.....

 Quote: david walter

Also reading many of the posts, it seemed like there were only 2 camps -- motivational or compulsion. IMO and as you stated, both methods are valid and need to be used appropriately based on the situation, action and dog.

You are on the website of a trainer who USES corrections and training collars. Most trainers use both motivation and compulsion. I want a dog to choose to do things because he wants to, but there's also a point where he has to.

And what you said about a dog "waiting for the next correction" is not true, the dog should understand what's going on and what's expected from him, it's not like random corrections are coming at him, if you confuse a dog you make him weak. You can teach a dog first, then he knows if he chooses not do perform the task, he gets a correction. Training with pure compulsion will break a dog down.

 Quote:

And what you said about a dog "waiting for the next correction" is not true, the dog should understand what's going on and what's expected from him, it's not like random corrections are coming at him, if you confuse a dog you make him weak. You can teach a dog first, then he knows if he chooses not do perform the task, he gets a correction. Training with pure compulsion will break a dog down.

That is a quote often heard by folks critical of compulsion training , leaning heavily on the motivational side , when they see a dog trained incorrectly with compulsion . This is to justify their excessive use of motivational training .

It is very similiar to quotes by folks critical of motivational training who often say things like : " I want my dogs to work for me not for some treat or toy . " when they see dogs trained incorrectly using motivation . They to do this to justify their excessive use of compulsion training . I've heard you state something similiar .

Both critics are wrong . Both have not seen or refuse to see a dog trained properly in the technique they know little about .

David just mention something he saw . The difference I see with him is he's trying to say both compulsion and motivation are important in training . David's been consistant .

With you your statements seem to change a little depending how a discussion is going .