i am astounded at the lack of "to each his own" tolerance here.

if a person was spouting how they were going to breed SL dogs b/c they were pretty & they intended to destroy all drive, & wanted them much bigger and more lazy, i could see getting in an uproar and suggesting another breed. nobody has been saying anything like that though. not one person, breeder OR owner.

when people ask about which type is more suitable for their life, resoundingly, no matter WHAT the situation, the answer is WL DOG ONLY. not "hmmm, what are you intending to do with the dog?"...
If WL dogs fulfilled every need in every situation for every person's goals then nobody woudl have bred SL dogs to begin with. they DO have value, they DO fulfill a niche & some CAN and DO work.

"less drive" is this awful concept that warrants the "get a Golden" response... gee, how productive to a supposedly educational dialog!
if a person wants a ton of drive to do competitive whatever (not SchH b/c that is now deemed meaningless),let's say Mondio, then get a WL--that is agreeable to most i think. but if somebody wants to do weekend-dog sports like SchH, and have a more mellow partner for every day life between trials or training----this is now BAD and means that they should not get a GSD at all? that is so narrow-minded and intolerant of lifestyles and agendas diff from your own, where *for you* a WL dog fits perfectly.

the folks on here that have a SL dog are certainly not bashing the WL dogs. Al, if your WL pup is good in the house, GREAT! could he be an exception to the typical? could you have raised him in a not-so common way that yielded that result? could your wealth of training experience have enabled you to accomplish this whereas a less experienced person to dogs might NOT have? do you disagree that TYPICALLY the average WL owner chooses (for whatever reasons) to keep their WL dog NOT as a housedog? is it possible that over so many yrs & generations of them being kept primarily as working-dog/kennel-dogs that it is now harder to make them into acceptable full time house-hold members?

this thread has been exhausting and stressful. thx for the + input, info and ideas. sorry if i offended anyone inadvertently. i am hoping to get some basic "non-partisan" answers to my SchH questions. : } i will not post again on the above subject.

jen

I am often asked by working line people why I "prefer the german show line"? especially where I enjoy training and working my dogs in SchH. I cannot say that I prefer the show line dog to the working line dog and I cannot say that I prefer the working line dog to the show line dog. What I can say is I prefer a dog that can work, wants to work and enjoys the work.

None of my dogs are couch potatoes, they aren't lawn ornaments, and I don't treat them like show dogs. I treat them and work them like a german shepherd. If there is any difference in how my dogs are treated it is the way the working line dog is treated, because of the work she does. She is SAR/HRD. She is special, and damn, but the bitch realizes she is.

I too, wish the gunshots were still part of the BH. I am glad the scaling wall isn't part of it anymore, because I sure as hell don't want to teach that, and I HATE seeing the dogs jump off the top of it. I stand in awe of the dogs that do it though, and can greatly appreciate the athletisim of it all. I don't see the importance of the attack out of the blind, but if someone wants to point that out to me, I am eager to learn. I would appreciate more consistency in the judging of trials, at all levels. I would like to see more pressure on the dogs. And while we are at it, if we can do away with sieger shows, especially with how they are judged now, I would be very happy. Either, TRULY test the dogs or call it a plain old dog show. "Performance Test"? Ha!

Jennifer wrote in part:
sorry to be harsh, but the siutation is what it is. it didnt happen overnight. if you are not happy about the direction the breed has taken, then wk to change it. but maybe slamming every SL dog, breeder, owner, judge, trial, event & show is not so productive. educating judges, the puppy-buying public, getting exposure to WL dogs--those are positive routes.

I didn’t take your response as harsh but you have misunderstood my intent. My issue is not “slamming” show breeders but only their methods. Every breeder must answer a fundamental question and that is, what is my goal? Is my goal to win at shows then if it is, it is incumbent, if they want to win, to breed to other dogs that win. Or is it to have a mentally sound dog that possesses all the traits assigned to it i.e., able to work, and history has shown us in order to accomplish that a breeder must breed to only other dogs that have shown that they can and will, there is no other way. Looks are not part of a working breeding but it is essential in a show breeding and their lies the problem, because for a working handler beauty is defined not by a rosette but seeing that dog doing its work and the anticipation for that work, for that dog the only thing that matters is that you ask it to do it. After that it is mentally satisfied and because of that, able and willing to be a most amiable companion. For some folks what he looks while doing it doesn’t really matter. I will admit that education is progressive path but in order to be educated a community must be open minded enough to first, understand there is a problem and a huge part of that problem is how they have been selecting their breed stock. Think the beauty community wants to hear that or be educated to stop selecting breed stock because they win at shows. That is the whole ethos of the show community. It’s not a secret anyone can find out what show breeding has done to pure breeds but first they must want to. Therein lies problem number two they don't want to. The fact the preponderance of the show community have chosen not to find out is indeed stunning. It is not about the public because they are too far gone, because as history has again shown us they will believe anything, it is about the breeder and their responsibility or lack thereof.

Norman, very well said!

 Quote: jennifer kline

if a person wants a ton of drive to do competitive whatever (not SchH b/c that is now deemed meaningless),let's say Mondio, then get a WL--that is agreeable to most i think. but if somebody wants to do weekend-dog sports like SchH, and have a more mellow partner for every day life between trials or training----this is now BAD and means that they should not get a GSD at all? that is so narrow-minded and intolerant of lifestyles and agendas diff from your own, where *for you* a WL dog fits perfectly.

What someone as an individual wants in an individual dog needs to be delineated somewhat from what the breed club and breeders see as their goal.

The GSD was origniated as a utilitarian, working dog. In breeding working dogs, not every pup/young dog from every litter is going to be appropriate for every avenue of work, and some may not be suitable for work at all. Herein lies the opportunity for placing the right pup/dog with the right owner, given that potential owner's lifestyle/expectations. However, the goals of the breeder & the Breed Club *of working dog breeds* should not be to produce nice pet dogs at the expense of their working potential. Breeding dogs for temperament, health, character & physical ability will always produce better dogs (pet or otherwise) than breeding for size, color, ear set, etc...

Norm,

I've been following this thread and THAT is a very good explanation.
Thank You.

"Al, if your WL pup is good in the house, GREAT! could he be an exception to the typical? could you have raised him in a not-so common way that yielded that result? could your wealth of training experience have enabled you to accomplish this whereas a less experienced person to dogs might NOT have? do you disagree that TYPICALLY the average WL owner chooses (for whatever reasons) to keep their WL dog NOT as a housedog?"

I think the average owner has their WL dog in the house. I've had a few WL dogs and they're all good in the house, it's a myth that they can't be taught to have house manners, lol. The key is to have a good trainer to ask stupid questions too. The showline problem is the majority of the dogs are weak and have low drives, easy to handle for folks that don't want to train them. I love goldens, it's not a knock but the reality is WL GSD's are so much better and training is easier because the dogs have the drive to do what's asked!

My opinion for not believing there is a golden middle is just common sense.
Look at is being discussed here! TWO separate breeds when in actuality it should be only ONE! In one breed there should be no WL or SL. The GSD was bred for work and show, period. The SL's are so far gone from the initial intention/look of the breed it's ridiculous, it resembles nothing like the original GSD. The WL's resemble best what the original GSD was meant to be.
I also understand that things change over time, but normally this is for the better not the worst as it's happened with SL's. Evolution anyone?
Thus, what "golden middle"? Breeding superior dogs to inferior ones to find it? What's the middle? Drive but not too much, sloped backs but not so much, hip displasya but not much of that either.
Yeah, people choose the dog they like but if some breeders hadn't messed it up we wouldn't be talking about choosing a between two different "breeds" of the same breed. Wtf!?

Norman and Mike S... you guys are awesome!

holy cow!!!! i'm gonna buy a cat
bravo!!
All i can say is this:
Dogs will evolve and so will we, how do we come together to bring both sides together, or do the Sl and wl go there own paths.
Think real hard. It is a fact as of now that both sides need each other to progress,
but they are not working together, we are fighting each other. WHY?
When i was a child i had a dog he was Brave, Noble, Smart he was a GERMAN SHEPERD
jb