Catherine:

You have been asked at least a dozen times to explain your training methods and a typical training session. You to this day have never answered this. You will describe what is wrong with my training method and give an overall view of what should be done but you will never go into specifics. If you do not have one then just say so. Maybe you disagree with mine and know that there must be a better way but you just don't know what it is? If that is the case just say so. You have stated time and time again that having a dog work for a reward is wrong he must work for you. How is this done? Through praise only? Please explain????

If you really do want to know I can try and explain a little. But I'm sure you won't like it. Its hard to just give a typical day. Its a philosophy.

This is the first dog I've raised this particular way. This was a typical day when she was a young pup. I'd like to have her trained as a protection dog someday.

I tried to take her out 3 or 4 times a day to different places - noises, surfaces, people. But I never let anyone pet her but children (still don't and won't). I didn't allow any baby talk (a personal dislike) and never gave treats (still don't) - only gave her food in her bowl. She was not allowed to bite or mouth me. I tried to use proper correction and direction, and lots of praise rather than redirecting with a toy. Corrections were done with a lead - except when she was very young . I'm much better at correcting now than I was - too bad I can't turn the clock back. I've learned (with lots of help) that its not the correction that causes the damage - body language, mood, the spirit in which you give it, etc. - the dog picks up on all of these. And it will absolutely not dampen a dog's desire to work.

As for play, there really wasn't much play. I did try tossing a kong for her but she wasn't all that interested. I never played tug with her because I don't think dogs view it as a game, more as a competition. And she doesn't need to be competing with me. Her idea of a good time (still) was going for a walk where there were lots of things to jump up on and climb. I tried to do this in busy areas also so she could learn to deal with stress and trust me. She was never forced - I always coaxed her along. Again, no treats. She would either do it because she wanted to follow me or not at all. Obedience was brought in at times - this relieve stress. I would climb these things with her when I could. I built a little obstacle course in my backyard and changed it nearly every day. The foundation work is so important and its something you can't change. I've seen unfriendly, aloof dogs become your best friend if you had a ball - I tested that on some dogs myself. So who's dog is it really? Is the dog focused on you or getting a treat or toy from you? The latter is not the kind of communication I want and its not necessary to build a bond. Nor does it build a better bond in my limited experience or observation.

There's so much more and so much more I don't know. I think thats enough of my rambling.

Many people use leash corrections and praise to teach obedience.....maybe I'm just dense, but it seems to me that the philosophy, whatever it is (I'm not really clear on what your philosophy is, exactly, just what you say that it is not....), results in the same actions that many, many, trainers use for general obedience work. It's pretty much the tried and true....

I suppose that I would argue, then, that the dog doesn't care what your philosophy is, it's your actions that the dog responds to. To me, it sounds like your techniques are pretty standard. I guess I'm just not clear on what is different here...maybe if you could clarify....

I'm also curious how you intend to train her in bitework? Exactly how will you induce her to bite a sleeve?

I'm also curious how you "ball tested" these other dogs? What location was this done in, and did you have any acquaintance with the dog owners?

<<I'm also curious how you intend to train her in bitework? Exactly how will you induce her to bite a sleeve? >>

This is what I've been waiting to hear as well. How to take a dog w/no prey drive, w/out slamming her straight into defense drive, in fact, avoiding the use of *drives* entirely, and get her to bite the sleeve? I'm very much looking forward to the response, could be a real breakthru for many pet owners w/low drive dogs.

Catherine:

So you don't protection train your dog. How can you give an opinion on something you never even tried?

Yes, many people use leash corrections for general obedience work. Yes the dog responds to your actions but also so many more things. No, its not "pretty much the tried and true". Wrong assumption. If you don't believe that the dog picks up on body language, emotion, desire and attitude (among other things) then you won't get the desired results. Obviously I can't explain it. Obviously even if I could you wouldn't believe it. I've tried the old "tried and true" but its not the same. There are so many wrong ways of doing leash corrections. Correction, direction and praise. If you think doing it correctly will reduce a dog's desire to please or work then maybe you underestimate or don't understand your dog.
Whats the measure of a happy dog? One thats prancing around waiting for its reward (treat or toy)? I've heard people say they train this way for competition so their dog looks happy. The dog looks like a beggar. Its a disservice to the dog.

A couple of examples on the ball testing. I had no acquaintance with the Doberman owner but he sure forgot about his owner once I had the ball. All his attention was on me. The Rottweiller owner I was acquainted with and again, you'd think I was the dog's best friend. What difference does it make where this was done? One was in familiar surroundings, one not. Is your dog only your dog in certain locations? I know people who have had even more dramatic results with these kinds of tests than I have. On highly trained dogs no less.

Biting a sleeve. Why so much focus on biting a sleeve? Sport training I guess is the answer. Why the assumption you'll end up with a fearful, dangerous dog if you don't work a dog in prey? Why don't you believe a pup has the tools to come to the defense of a handler? Not as an adult would. You believe it to be prey drive. Yeah, sure. You could probably explain anything away with the drive theory. Yet it seems the dog itself is lost in all these neat little explanations. I believe there are two drives - prey and defense, with defense being fight or flight. A dog is either serious in what its doing or its not.

Vince,
I will not use sport methods to train a protection dog. I am not training mine right now because its so hard to find trainers who don't use these methods. If I can't find one then she won't be trained. Sport methods are not for real life.

I have an trained adult protection dog who was not trained in prey or with food or toys. He will bark and alert me to suspicious movement if I'm not in a position to defend myself. Is that an indication of a fearful dog? I have spoken to people who think so. I don't. People are so quick to say a dog is fearful or has bad nerves if it doesn't react in some sort of predetermined way. I'll bet many good dogs are discarded because of this.

Catherine:

You have made up your mind. And there is no changing it. I'm throwing in the white towel. I wish you luck but I am through tring to convince you. You will either learn on your own or you will not. It's up to you...

Sorry about the formatting, again, it would be nice to be able to edit posts! Ed?