There is a difference between Working lines and a working dog.

There is a difference between Show lines and a dog that shows.

No matter how complicated you attempt to make it, it is really that simple.

 Quote: Betty Waldron

There is a difference between Working lines and a working dog.

There is a difference between Show lines and a dog that shows.

No matter how complicated you attempt to make it, it is really that simple.

Exactly.

"Because I don't have to" is interpreted by most folks here as "I can't".

Titles are only as good as the trial they are won at and the judge that awarded them. Just having them means nothing if the dog can't perform enough to show HOW it got them.
I've seen my share of Schutzhund-titled, imported show line GSDs that had no clue when it came to actually performing the required exercises.
There are clubs that put these so called "titles" on dogs in a matter of weeks. Maybe thats because of the show line dog's exceptional learning ability......and maybe not.
My first "Working line" GSD was imported in his mom's belly. She had titles up the whazoo and continued to earn them over here at different trials to prove what she had earned. His sire was a BSP competitor in Germany. That would be similar to the World series in Baseball.
Most of the "titled" show line dogs "get" -- I didn't say earned -- the title, and you never see them on a trial field again. I wonder why? It's simple. In Europe a dog can't be shown for it's championship without a working title. That can be schutzhund, herding and a few others. There are clubs that "title" these dogs only because they need them to show. Nothing to do with real sport or real working ability.

 Quote: Katie Finlay

.... Comparing human beings to dog breeding is completely irrelevant.

From nationality to race to sexual orientation .... gratuitous, irrelevant to any discussion of dog breeding -- and, IMO, offensive,

 Quote: Katie Finlay

 Quote: Betty Waldron

There is a difference between Working lines and a working dog.

There is a difference between Show lines and a dog that shows.

No matter how complicated you attempt to make it, it is really that simple.

Exactly.

Well put.

Also,

 Quote: Katie Finlay

I would be the perfect example of looking at the dog in front of me. My bitch is out of untitled dogs. I chose working lines to increase my chances of a biting dog but I looked at her, her parents and her siblings without giving a thought to the pedigree after that.

Ditto, here.

I did the same recently with my new puppy, Lucy. Her dad is a Malinois that was sold to a lady by a police dept, due to budget cuts. Both of the father's parents are working police dogs at the dept. Lucy's mom is a working Border Collie (cattle dog). (Keep in mind this is all according to the lady who had the pups...i.e. unverified)

I am interested in pretty much all aspects of dog training, so I need a dog that is very motivated. Lucy fits the bill perfectly so far, and I could tell she would be good from the start. Great? That is a guessing game! However, I feel a bit more confident because of her working lines...now it's up to me to do the best I can to bring out the best in her!

BTW--Even though she is only 14 weeks old, she is officially a working dog:

I proposed to my girlfriend (now fiancee) on Valentine's day this year, and Lucy was an integral part! I hid the ring in her favorite ball, hid it in my pocket, and proceeded to have her fetch something else for awhile. Then, ever so gently, I tossed her ball out and had her bring it to me. Then, I asked the GF, "What is in here? Was there something in there when you were playing with her earlier?" "No, what is it?" "It looks like a rock..." It was a lot harder to remove the ring out of that little hole than it was to stuff it in there!

Ah, cute puppy....worked like a charm!

Cute story Rick!

I also still think it's funny that you assume none of us know your dogs or bloodlines when in reality if you own the dogs I think you do, my bitch is very closely related to your Jack.

Ie. Your Orry son.

How do he know?? Apparently there is no criteria for "show" or "working" other than personal preference. It must be like pornography .. ie you know it when you see it. So who decides?? The SV is not on board with this so is this the Monks of New Skete or some cloistered group of wise men and or women who declare who is working and who is show?? It is exactly like racial and ethnic stereotypes. Many good basketball players are black so black men are good at basketball. Many good hockey players are Canadian and white so white Canadians are good at hockey. It has nothing to do with selection it has to do with making something simple that is not simple.

This whole conversation reminds me of the debate on dalmatians. Are low uric acid (LUA)dalmatians real because they are 99% genetically similar to non-crossed dalmatians, or is the fact that generations ago someone crossed a pointer into the gene pool to fix a debilitating genetic fault make them mongrels with spots?

You should see the angry faces the purists make whenever someone dares talk about LUA dals in front of them. I got a kick out of imaging some people making angry faces.

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Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/14/2013 10:33 PM)
Edit reason: self-delete

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Katie Finlay

.... Comparing human beings to dog breeding is completely irrelevant.

From nationality to race to sexual orientation .... gratuitous, irrelevant to any discussion of dog breeding -- and, IMO, offensive,

100% in agreement with that statement Connie. No real answers. Just a lot of REALLY weird racial and sexual orientation comparisons that make no sense what so ever.