Very interesting topis here again.
Thanks Kevin for all this interesting information about fight drive. Although there is one thing I don't really agree upon.
"particularly in sport work. If the dog hasn't barked as well as I like in the blind, I will press defensive bahviors to obtain greater barking intensity for a better sport performance (realizing that I can't do this forever without causing problems down the road)."
A dog barking in defense in the blind barks completely different also then mostly take some distance from the helper and the blind.
I'm thinking a good way to describe it is that fight or active aggression is just an attitude towards defense work (or just the event of seeing the helper or being hooked up to the pole or given the command) that has developed a great confidence from generalizing many wins from many situations (with the mindframe that he can defeat all and so, it feels great) and of course accompanied by strong prey to help make that avoidance threshold a lot larger. I also feel it doesn't mean that the dog does not have the ability to switch in and out to defense in the fight to something new and akward. But it's basically a mixture of strong prey and defense + great confidence through experience from generalizing with a very high avoidance threshold. yes..no???
Valdes43, you've just about quoted Helmut Raiser in his book, Der Schutzhund. He says there is no consensus on whether a fight drive really exists, that research indicates that it is a learned behavior strengthened by a history of success in conflicts, and he also says that he believes it is an extension of the PLAY drive. Raiser says all the dogs he has seen with 'fight' are also very high prey dogs who enjoy engaging the helper; that the dog is able to enjoy the fight only if he is not stressed and that comes from the dog having strong active defensive behaviors and strong prey attraction.
Originally posted by Valdes43: I'm thinking a good way to describe it is that fight or active aggression is just an attitude towards defense work ...
I am going to jump in on you and disagree with this statement buddy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
If to use the term "defense work" you are saying that the dog is feeling threatened, hence defense. In true (if there is such a thing) fight drive, the dog feels no threat. In this regard I completely agree with Kevin's earlier post about UFC type guys.. they just like to hurt each other, even if it means they get hurt in the process. They sense no real threat (i.e. life or death) just the opportuninty for battle, and they thrive on that!!!
but what do I know? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Originally posted by Valdes43: I'm thinking a good way to describe it is that fight or active aggression is just an attitude towards defense work ...
I am going to jump in on you and disagree with this statement buddy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
If to use the term "defense work" you are saying that the dog is feeling threatened, hence defense. In true (if there is such a thing) fight drive, the dog feels no threat
Actually I wrote the "attitude" (meaning fight would be what the dog feels) towards defensive type stimulation from the decoy. Get it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Originally posted by Valdes43: Actually I wrote the "attitude" (meaning fight would be what the dog feels) towards defensive type stimulation from the decoy. Get it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
OK, I get it as long as we are in agreeance (sp?) that defense-type work is different than true defense (threat).. perception is key...
perception on behalf of the dog not the decoy... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I also agree with Kevin's comment about UFC guys in comparing defence and fight. Some earth dogs will stand back 6-12 inches and bay their quarry (my preference) unless pushed into defense,while others will gladly dive right in for the pure pleasure of the fight, reguardless of the punishment they take. This is why I gave early retirement to my old border who is one of the sweetest, softest (with people and other dogs), terriers I have ever owned. He lived to battle with the quarry.
The attitude of the dog made no difference, the reaction to what was presented made a difference.
Wow. Richard, you and I have radically fundamental differences in training.
And don't respond thank god. LOL. (Just to keep it light.)
Moderators:
Please bookmark this statement from Kevin. Any future questions on Fight Drive can be answered with this simple statement.
but there is the additional fight drive that is the most desirable of all because it is not born from the stress of the work but an enjoyment of measuring oneself against an opponent in combat.
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