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Could the trainers border collie have been eyeing your dog without even knowing it from other lessons etc? Might even be giving off some 'communication' that you don't know but your dog certainly does.

I am assuming your dog has been around other breeds?

BOrder collies are also very fast and they play like they work sheep (so do gsd's!).

With regard to eyeing my dog on a previous occasion, I remember the BC nipped at my dog the very first time my dog came for a lesson which was when my dog was about 5 months old. My dog has since been in the company of the BC - maybe 3 or 4 times. It's always the same thing...the trainer takes her BC out for a demonstration or something short and simple and then the BC goes away. But this is the first time my dog was irritated by him. He seemed to respond to the BC's quick actions and each time the BC followed a command that required movement, that was when my dog would lunge for him.

Yes, my dog is around dogs on a weekly basis thru lessons and around them when he goes on walks with me. As I said, he has never responded this way before. You might be right. It may be the BC's quick movements.

I'm going to respond to this to put the border collie thing in perspective at least as far as my experience with it is for you all. Yes, BCs have the 'eye' & it intimidates
'prey animals' into submission. I don't believe that it effects other predatory animals in the same fashion, at least not in my experience. My friend & her husband have 6 dogs....5 border collies & austrailian shepherds & 1 chow mix, 3 cats 4 horses (1 of which is mine) & 2 boys under the age of 3. All without incident with either the cats or the horses or kids. So I get to see this interaction on a regular basis. I work both my 2 1/2 yr old whole female & 3 1/2 yr old intact male in a school field behind my house on a regaular basis with a geltleman that works he 3 border collies (all 3 on the field at the same time)as I have my 2 dogs working. All of these dogs on many occasions have come within 8-10 feet or less of each other while working. The man hits tennis balls with a bat to his 3 dogs who chase the balls & often will run or walk right past either of my dogs while they are working, doing down stays, retreiving also, heeling etc.etc.etc. without any incident. The dogs & mine DO MAKE EYE CONTACT with each other & I have never had any problems with his or my dogs. I know that 2 of his dogs are intact males, don't know about the 3rd. So it's JMHO that it depends on the dogs, their training & the handler's control
of his dogs in the situation. My dogs & his know that they mind their own business & focus on their handler for any commands & that the world could come to an end around them & they are still expected to listen & focus their attention on their handler. My male dog made a move at another intact male once when I first had him ( only had him since Oct) and believe me, he hasn't tried it again on of off the field. He was given a 'no' & a mild correction. (he is a handler soft dog) & that put the end to that issue. So I don't think that it necessarily has anything to do with the breed of another dog as much as the dog's training & the handler's control of their own dog(s). I have also had my dogs on the field with other SchH trained intact males without incident. I of course am speaking of non agressive dogs ones that are dog or animal agressive is another issue entirely. Again this is just my opinion & experience. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Anne. It is important no matter what the breed to also look at individual dogs/character/temperament etc.

Border collies can and do use thier eye on other things besides prey HOWEVER, in some ways, so do other breeds. I am sure many of us have experienced our dogs looking at another dog and setting it off. Usually this is due to us missing some communication that has been happening that we were not aware of.

Border collies are also VERY biddable dogs. They have been bred for many, many generations to work 'with' man and are still very true to these roots. Thus they are very trainable and do catch on to things quickly as well are 'rules' that are set out.

So, they can live in households with many 'prey' animals and do well! With training and a good setting out of the rules. My guy does NOT work the sheep unless I tell him too. We can sit close by sheep and he will not move or do anything (however, I have to keep watching as he is also often using his eye to work them without moving). My guy actually also turns off when he is off stock! Soon as he is given the command "that will do" he goes and looks for a stick for you to throw.

Border collies are no different than other breeds in many circumstances. In the example you give about working your dog in a feild beside a man with exercising his border collies is VERY normal. As this breed is very in tune to humans, they have very good pack drive and want to stay/please the handler /owner. GIve them something they LOVE and they are not likley to stray from it to even notice another dog! My dog could care less if another dog comes onto the feild where we are working. He would never leave the sheep to go visit. Just like these border collies are not likely to care if there is another dog playing around them.

Once border collies know the rules, you often have litter trouble with them but I would bet this guy has taught/or laid down the rules to his dogs and thus they get along.

I have been to countless border collie trials/clinics and I am often shocked at how often fights break out and HOW quickly they are stopped!!!! These handlers often will put ALL the dogs out in the feild so you will often have 20-30 dogs running together. Fights can and do start but a strong verbal correction from handler often stops it instantly and then the dog ignores the other dog. IF for some reason they don't stop...most are small enough to pull apart quickly and picked up. (try doing that with a gsd!)

When this breed is 'working/playing' they often have nothing else on thier mind except what they are doing.

What I was referring to and wanted to know is if the border collie and gsd had opportunity to do some 'non verbal' language before hand that might set them off quickly when they are around each other. I did not think that the border collie once it came to the group starting eyeing the gsd..this would be very unlikley.

I have my intact border collie (3) and my intact males (gsd) (5 and 2) all together at the same time with no issues, BUT, the rules are clear. They do NOT get to look at each other and make long eye contact. I am VERY careful playing ball with all 3 of them around and if I do, they ALL have thier own ball/toy as they are all very high ball drive. Also haveing something in thier mouth, keeping it busy helps. No one gets special attention etc.

It sounds like perhaps, that your dog at 5 months old remembered the dog from its first nip? Who knows for sure. In any case it does not sound like they have had opportunity to egg each other on via eye contact etc. And it even sounds like perhaps your dog is responding out of prey drive at some of the quick movmements of the border collie. Perhaps your dog is 'quick to react' to this. Other dogs might not set him off as quickly as they are not as 'quick' at the border collie might be in thier movements.

When I first got Riggs and he started to play with the gsd's I was surprised at how quick he could be. he would be playing with my male (4 yrs. old) and in an instant be in his face, take a quick nip and out. Long before my male even knew what hit him! I kept thinking...one of these days, Aiko will nail you. They can have thier issues but Riggs ALWAYS gives to Aiko in circumstances, so there have not been fights and I can have them together without issues. However, I also never give Riggs the attention he asks for when he is around Aiko. I can see the eye contact going on.....

Judy, typically, all the male intact GSD's I have had go through a rough patch starting around 12 mo. Like teenage boys with raging hormones I think! With your dog, I'm betting from now until about 18 months you will have the pleasure of him acting sometimes goofy, sometimes stupid, sometimes even spooky! I have always tried to remain calm but firm about unacceptable behaviour at that age. They will really try your patience! Really keep your eye on him, & if he does it again give him a good solid pop correction right at the moment he shows any sign of starting up, but at the same time keep him moving forward. Most important to remain totally calm, no yelling. In fact, other than the really good pops, he should not feel any emotion from you. It's quite possible that his reaction was just because it was a new dog & could have nothing to do with male/female, intact or not or breed! Right now, he needs to see that since you are the leader, & you don't react, you will not allow him to react either.