Quote:

Thanks Connie, I can get beef bones from my butcher but I wouldn't think he could eat them as they are so large. What do you reccomend. Also how much salmon oil and vitamin E.
I cannot tell you how happy we are that the scratching is sooooo much better. Also what should I use for training treats? Thanks, Jack

Training treat -- excellent reminder! Lots of people forget that they contain potential allergens, just like the main food. So what I learned here last year is to cook up (bake) little pieces of whatever the elimination diet is. Homemade jerky works, too. The natural food store I use has one- and two-ingredient jerkies (including salmon) that I buy all the time and break up for training treats. (You have to get human quality, IME, to get a detailed ingredient list.) Pricey, but an elimination diet is not a forever diet (probably).

Bones: Yeah, that's a challenge I didn't consider, with beef. But for right now, the raw beef with no bones (short term!) is OK, IMO, so long as you are clear that it's not an OK long-term diet without bones.

Anyone here given a long-term raw beef diet? At first thought, it seems that bone powder might be necessary with a long-term beef diet.

But I'll bet that once you isolate the allergen(s), you will have a much greater choice: rabbit RMBs and meat, for example).

About the fish oil and Vitamin E, from a previous post of mine:

Salmon oil for people: Follow the bottle suggestions, assuming they mean a 150-pound person, and adjust accordingly for the dog's weight.

Vitamin E:
The dog RDA is 50 IU per pound of food, but I use considerably more. (I use about 100 IU/day for the small dog and 200 IU/day for the big dog, and I know several people who use more.)

I found some of the Vitamin E articles I read explaining why more than the canine RDA of Vitamin E could be tolerated.

This site: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&articleid=710
has this to say:
QUOTE: There are no known Vitamin E toxicities in the dog and cat. Fed even at huge levels, no interruption of bodily functions has been demonstrated. Recommendations on the daily dose are highly variable depending on the source. END

Also, scroll down to the "Vitamin E" heading here:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_2001_Sept/ai_80532259/pg_3

Also looked at the Pitcairn book, which says (a little vaguely) "I include extra Vitamin E in the diet for several reasons. Not only does it aid important body functions, such as fighting disease, but it also helps minimize the effects of pollution."

I cite these sources because first instinct would be to limit any oil-soluble vitamins to the RDA to avoid toxicity, which holds true for, say, Vitamin A. JMO.

JMO! I'm not a health professional.

Thanks Connie,

Here is everything in my Dog's kibble. Looks like there's no beef.

Ingredients: Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberry, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera, , Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.

 Quote:

......Ingredients: Natural Chicken, Organic Brown Rice, Chicken Meal, Organic Oats, Organic Millet, Organic Barley, Organic Sorghum, Organic Potato, Organic Peas, Organic Canola Oil, Organic Flaxseed, Chicken Fat (Naturally stabilized with Mixed Tocopherols), Dicalcium Phosphate, Organic Carrots, Natural Flavor, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Mixed Tocopherols, Organic Spinach, Organic Cranberry, Organic Tomato, Yucca Schidigera, , Dried Kelp, Organic Parsley, Organic Rosemary, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Taurine, Manganese Sulfate, Niacin, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Inositol, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Thiamin Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin D-2, Biotin, Potassium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Sodium Selenite.

That food has a lot of grain. I'm not saying it's poor *quality* at all --- just that I personally have concluded that grain-heavy commercial foods are not a good choice.

OTOH, no wheat, corn, or soy, and those are the most common canine food allergens.

On the other OTHER hand, there are a lot of ingredients, which works against an elimination diet.

So anyway, I went back and read the thread again, and I'm not clear on whether you're looking for a kibble to use as an elimination diet, or whether you want to switch to raw.

I ran across this site recently, which is up-to-date enough to include the newest of the commercial foods in its discussion of food allergies.
http://www.lucythewonderdog.com/food-allergies.htm

For me, the simplest elimination diet includes the fewest ingredients, and they are foods the dog has never been exposed to. (For example, a dog who has lived with cats would probably have eaten fish.) Since my dogs have all been pre-owned <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, their histories have been unknown, which meant I used very novel foods, such as rabbit. I bought frozen rabbit (with bones).

If your dog has eaten only this food, then these are the ingredients you don't want in the elimination diet (along with whatever his training treats have in them).

SO......... depending on that (his history), you too might consider the ground beef plus salmon oil and Vitamin E for a while to see what happens.

It would be good to search here for "raw," "elimination diet," and "barf," depending on whether you want to switch to raw or just find out if he has a food allergy. (Remember that the most common canine allergies are not food; however, excellent food, IMO, can help the immune system deal better with environmental allergies, and if there is a food allergy, it's the easiest to get rid of.)

All this is JMO, based on research and experience with allergic dogs.

Thanks again Connie. And yes, I would like to make the switch to raw eventually. I'll check out the links and do the search and read as much as I can.