Hi Dave,

At this stage it only seems like you and me, are out and about on this subject. Or is that in and about, LOL.

Like you with an experienced dog, I had a confusing time with the "out".

I looked at it, one way being, why why why, would a dog "want" to deliver at all? I tried to make the out command a positive not a negative, by re establishing drive. I taught out in our lounge room, with high praise. It also suited our trials, in a manner of speaking, when a dog needs to ignore a bird, on the same line, to another.

Most forums seem slow on the weekends. If it wasn't lousy weather I'd be outside all weekend.

Yes, when I take the ball, I automatically go straight back into building drive. I'm wondering how long I need to continue building drive. I know you went on with Yank for two weeks, and I'm sure he has very high prey drive. Ace seemed apprehensive the first session but has been a maniac ever since. I just feel strange telling him to drop when I haven't really done a lot of heeling in circles and into my arms yet.

Yank is not too bad. He has high drive and solid nerves. He was easily distracted initially, as would any dog, I suppose at the age I received him, who had high value of people, other dogs etc. He was a little self employed. but that was fine, as I wanted RAW material to work with.

I must admit I have never owned a labrador, who was so manic regarding using his nose. No wonder my customs friends liked him!!!!

i would LOVE to see some of the real experts reply to this one: so it's not SCH or ringsport, but aren't some things the same across disciplines?? as in, building drive? training in drive?

where's will and van camp when we need 'em?!! get after it guys... <img src="http://www.leerburgkennels.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

i would LOVE to see some of the real experts reply to this one: so it's not SCH or ringsport, but aren't some things the same across disciplines?? as in, building drive? training in drive?

I would like some input too. Such sadness,no one has replied. <img src="http://www.leerburgkennels.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I am not 100% clear what you are asking BUT what I would do with this dog (assuming he is clear on the out) is build drive, give him a bite, tug with him, run with him, tug some more, take him into your arms, run again, then out and KICK it away so the dog realizes the game continues quickly as soon as he outs. Mix it up, don't get stuck in a pattern. the only time I rip the toy away is if I notice my dog is not holding it correctly and chewing. If you rip the toy away too much it can cause chewing and unsureness when the handler is near.

you may only out the dog once or maybe twice a session and sometimes not at all. You need to determine what your dog needs each time you play with him, by his level of drive and intensity that session.

hope this helps.

I guess what was confusing me is when watching the DVD, I get the impression of an overall progression you take the dog through.

Drive
Starting Focus
Grip
Focus
Out
Heel
Sit

Having trained this dog with traditional retriever training methods, he pretty much has the grip and out already. He will carry the prey item calmly and he will drop it into my hand on command - DROP. So I feel like my training is out of the normal progression He hasn't completed drive or focus. Watching the dogs on the DVD, the dogs in drive training will drop the prey item and the handler can go right back into drive building. Well, if my dog happens to catch the ball he's not going to drop it so I was taking it away by ripping it out of his mouth. I'd heard that doing that would cause problems with the way the dog handled the prey item so I was wondering how to handle this.

I noticed on the DVD, Ed talks about ripping the ball out of the dog's mouth often while building drive. So I'm confused about it. You've said that ripping it out too much will cause chewing and mouthing. Someone else has told me the same thing so I'm confused. I wonder how much it too much, but that's probably not a question that has an answer. Maybe I think too much.

Thanks, I appreciate your reply.

Dave,

Ripping the toy away is to teach the dog that it must grip the prey object firmly. Doing this too much/teaching out too late causes mouthing (I made this mistake too). If your dog grips firmly, forget about it.

When your dog has the prey item, work on tugging, running with it and into my arms.

Your dog knows "out" so use it - maybe once a day. Go back into drive immediately! You don't want to create stress over an already good out.

Since not many people seem to contribute to these "specialty forum" sections I'll give my two cents.

You're running into the same problems I've had for a while with my dog and here's basically what I've gathered. If your dog gets the toy and has a nice grip and doesn't mouth it or what not, you can either run him in a circle, take him into your arms, or simply slowly grab the toy in his mouth and start playing tug again. Bernard does this last one in his video "Preparing Your Dog for the Helper." Which doesn't really come through in the first one. When I first started this work I was under the horrible misconception that if the dog was slightly chewy, I needed to rip the toy out to make it firm...oh my god no. His grip got worse than ever and only after months of work is it showing a real improvement.

I would say, if you're looking to continue the game, simply start playing tug again (but don't try to rip the toy out, let the dog see you comin), take him into the arms, run him in a circle, or even do stuff where he sits in front and let go of the toy and pet him (to emphasize sitting in front of you with a calm grip). Then when you want the toy back, let him win the last game and let him carry it off the field. Then get it back when he drops it. That's what I do, it seems to be working farely well but I am certainly no expert at all. Just thought I'd throw out some ideas. Good luck.