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HI Kristine,
There aren't a whole lot of low drive Mals or Dutchies that I've ever seen :-)

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I've always wondered about the 'healthier' thing--I read elsewhere on this board, Kevin Sheldahl's post I believe, wherein he says that German Shepherds only have more 'known' diseases which are tested for. It doesn't necessarily mean Mals are healthier. Of course, we're talking about working stock right?

>I somewhat agree with you and Kevin. The problem with
>GSD's is they're too popular. Too many people that think
>the only prerequiste to be a breeder is owning (or having
>access to) a male and a female :-( The working Dobermann
>still haven't recovered from their "popularity" with all
>the Doberman Gang movies in the 1980's The same thing
>happened with the Rottwieller? I think the Mals and
>Dutchies WERE healthier. That is changing now. Mals are
>too popular. Everybody and his Uncle wants one now :-(

that's another thing, I sort of like to be incognito. Even though I love alot of various working breeds along with others the popularity thing isn't something that seems to be beneficial with any breed. I have had pit bulls as a kid and owned them for about 18yrs. Never had a dog acident as well as a human attack unwarranted. My dogs were always social, etc. Its just now they have such a bad stereotype that I don't want to mess with them anymore. Sad, a good dog gone bad. Just like dobies, rotties, shep's, etc. Its the owner, common sense and training. But it seems that so much of the public views them as "desireable" due to the wrong reasons. Hell, but even when people come up and ask what type of dog I have ( when I had that mal) I'd lie when the wrong type of person asked. Had nothing to do with creed, gender, race, religion., etc. Just to me, crack head, meth freaks, druggies, wanna-be cool kids, etc don't need to know. It's only for the worsening of the breed. By it becoming popular, like you said, health probs, etc come about.

The main reason I am after a dutchie or a mal is I know how I am and my active lifestyle. I have always wanted to be a competitor with working dogs and as a kid never could afford one. Now that I am older and am able to predict my future better, I prefer one. Not only that I would like to have my own dog that is well behaved but yet can work with me when we go to events. Not one standing on the sidelines wishing their dog would act like those abroad.

Next, I am an out-doorsy kind of guy. When I break out my dirtbike, I want to bring my dog along and have him run out in the fields and do his thing while I do mine. I had a bulldog that would do nothing but sit under the SUV and sleep while I played around. I want a dog that will be very interactive with my and my lifestyle. I have no kids, not married, etc. So the dog would be my outting buddy. And when I am with friends will be willing enough to partake. But when a lady guest comes by, the dog will mind its manners and not be so aggresive that I cannot even let it out of the crate when they come over.

I want the ultimate package. One that can participate with me and my outtings, a dog that I can push at his own brain game and he can have fun in tournements, and a dog that can hang out with fam/frineds without jumping their bones and annoying them.

So am I on the right track again, for seeking out a working line of breed?

I had a am. bulldog after the mal thinking "slower" and more lethargic was better but after keeping her for 5mo, she couldn't keep up with my lifestyle. Nice dog, great for a family but not what I was after. My friend has her and LOVES her. I took the loss so I could get a buddy that can handle my active lifestyle. Did I mention I ride my dirt bike everyday, including winter? haha, outdoor freak, I know...

Take care....

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a dog that can hang out with fam/frineds without jumping their bones and annoying them.

Exactly why I was asking why you weren't considering a German Shepherd dog. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I wanted a Mal before, but decided that since my family found my Border Collie annoying enough with her running around the house, a Mal would be a bad decision at the moment. My German Shepherd just lies around in the house, but outside he's a rocket, you literally have to keep moving during drivework or he'll tear you new holes, his bite work is extremely powerful. Sort of like an 'on off' switch. Mals can have that too, but from what I heard people have to *wait* for them to mature and settle down first, whereas my 11 month old working line is already very calm in the house (the most he's ever destroyed is a piece of aquarium equipment and my Playstation 2's cord). Personally I don't like his obedience very much because of the way he learns (he's slow and not 'flashy', you could correct him until you're blue in the face and he won't budge)...but physically I don't find him lacking in anything. We do miles-long walks at times and he never shows sign of fatigue.

Just something to consider; it's easier to expect a GSD to be lower drive than a Mal. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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a dog that can hang out with fam/frineds without jumping their bones and annoying them.

Exactly why I was asking why you weren't considering a German Shepherd dog. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I wanted a Mal before, but decided that since my family found my Border Collie annoying enough with her running around the house, a Mal would be a bad decision at the moment. My German Shepherd just lies around in the house, but outside he's a rocket, you literally have to keep moving during drivework or he'll tear you new holes, his bite work is extremely powerful. Sort of like an 'on off' switch. Mals can have that too, but from what I heard people have to *wait* for them to mature and settle down first, whereas my 11 month old working line is already very calm in the house (the most he's ever destroyed is a piece of aquarium equipment and my Playstation 2's cord). Personally I don't like his obedience very much because of the way he learns (he's slow and not 'flashy', you could correct him until you're blue in the face and he won't budge)...but physically I don't find him lacking in anything. We do miles-long walks at times and he never shows sign of fatigue.

Just something to consider; it's easier to expect a GSD to be lower drive than a Mal. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I hear you but you know what I've heard from a trainer in the midwest?

he told me its my fault. meaning any mal or dutch can be laid back and subdued in the house.

His reasons were that b/c I played tug, etc in the house, he never learned how to "turn" himself off. He said when I was out do my normal routine of obedience and romping around. But once at home, he is off. Its time to relax and chill out.

What's your take on this aspect?

Could be (haven't had enough experience with Mals to say anything else, although if you search around you'll hear people who'll say otherwise). The way dogs turn out depend on a mixture of their genetics AND their handling. If you're willing to put the time and effort in it, then select a Mal again (but I still don't see why you would deliberately choose a low-drive Mal when you're wanting to do both personal protection and Schutzhund...it's just going to be harder for you on another level if you get a lower drive dog).

On the other hand, I romp and play with my dogs in the house. They will romp if I let them, are quiet otherwise. Too many factors surrounding this so I can't tell you what to do, just offering another viewpoint.

John H pretty much answered all your questions.

My first mal last year was a dud dog. I just got a 6 week old female from much better working lines and she is biting the sheeeet out of everything. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Dogs drives arent like baking a cake and mixing a cartain bit of this to achieve that. My pup was 500 $, no way you would find a GSD for that price to do the work. Nothing the matter with GSD's . I have one laying here next to me while I type this, rescue dog, but for most all sport or PP applications Belgian shepherds and Dutchies are the best value for many reasons. Sounds like most of your issues were training related, not dog related. Good luck