Hi all,

First off, I apologise if it seems I'm bringing up a topic that has already been discussed, but I couldn't seem to find what I was looking for thru the 'search' function.

I have been thinking a lot lately about switching my dog to Innova EVO- the more I hear about this food the more I like it. I do have some questions for those of you who feed it, if you don't mind.

My 9 1/2 y.o. border collie is active and healthy, apart from an unnamed chronic thing that resembles hepatitis (in a nutshell, her liver enzyme counts have been quite high for the last year or so but as she is completely asymptomatic the vet and I have decided to take a 'if it's not broke don't fix it' sort of attitude. We've done an ultrasound, which really didn't turn up anything alarming.) I currently feed her the Senior Chicken Soup. I have no complaints about this food- neither does the dog, lol- but I'm always on the lookout for something better.

What I am wondering is...should I take that 'Don't Fix What's Not Broken' philosophy with regards to her diet as well? I just don't know if switching an older dog to a totally different type of diet (ie: grain-free and MUCH more protein) is going to cause more gastro/hepatic trouble than it's worth. For what it's worth I am also going to ask my veterinarian, but I would appreciate some input from those of you who have switched senior dogs to EVO and may give me some idea of what to expect.

Thanks in advance!

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...I have been thinking a lot lately about switching my dog to Innova EVO- the more I hear about this food the more I like it. .....My 9 1/2 y.o. border collie is active and healthy, apart from an unnamed chronic thing that resembles hepatitis (in a nutshell, her liver enzyme counts have been quite high for the last year or so but as she is completely asymptomatic the vet and I have decided to take a 'if it's not broke don't fix it' sort of attitude......

In a nutshell, my own feeling about feeding dogs of any age is that reducing the amount of grain is good.

Maybe EVO is too high in protein for your dog. The vet can tell you that.

But there are other ways of reducing grain (which, by the way, does contain protein).

What I have read over the years, in vet med studies and in canine nutrition books, has led me to conclude that grain-heavy foods can be a constant stressor on the systems of many dogs. Because dogs didn't evolve eating any more grain than the small amount that might be consumed in the prey's stomach (which, of course, is partially digested), and because they don't have the salivary enzyme we have (amylase) to start the grain-digestion process, I think that it's quite possible that grain-heavy foods can cause a continuous strain on the pancreas and other organs by demanding enzyme production that isn't natural to dogs.

This is over-simplified, and it's just an opinion. I am inclined to believe it, though -- enough so that I no longer feed any grain (aside from the tiny amount that may be in some of the treats I buy).

There are many sources of calories that could replace grain calories if you were trying to avoid using protein. One is fat, particularly Omega 3 EFAs.

And if you *don't* have to watch protein intake, depending on the dog's age and health, then I personally would consider switching to the food you mentioned.

However, I'd prefer one of the no-grain recipes from The Honest Kitchen, if I couldn't feed raw. I'd prefer it because it's less processed (at lower heat) than kibble is.

JMO. You wanted opinions, right? <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your thoughts, Connie- I appreciate it! I have the same suspicions about foods that are high in grain, but I'm no expert, by any means. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We shall see what the vet has to say.

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Thanks for your thoughts, Connie- I appreciate it! I have the same suspicions about foods that are high in grain, but I'm no expert, by any means. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ....We shall see what the vet has to say.

On your way in, look around the waiting room. If the usual foods (such as Science Diet) are covering all the shelves, then you'll probably want to ask the vet about that. If s/he talks about them in glowing terms, then you might want to reconsider using his/her opinion about food as your guide.

Vets get very little nutrition education in most vet colleges, and a lot of what they do get is funded by commercial food companies. Also, as Will R. pointed out here recently, those glossy bags in the waiting room are deeeeeply discounted to the vet, and the companies providing them often offer C.E. courses to the staff.

Not to sound too cynical, because I think some vets are beginning to question the gospel according to Hill's, but it's good to ask where the information we're offered came from. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMO!

Not cynical at all. You're quite right about 'preaching the gospel' (which made me laugh, btw) and after working for vets myself, I know that they- and Hill's reps- can be pretty...ENTHUSIASTIC....about their Science Diet recommendations. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I am just going to have to suck it up and make an appointment to see a holistic vet to discuss my concerns, I think. My own vet is a very nice guy, just not really open minded- I only just convinced him a couple of years ago to stop badgering me about not vaccinating my dog.

Thanks again for your suggestions, Connie. Very helpful, as always!

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Not cynical at all. You're quite right about 'preaching the gospel' (which made me laugh, btw) and after working for vets myself, I know that they- and Hill's reps- can be pretty...ENTHUSIASTIC....about their Science Diet recommendations. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.....I am just going to have to suck it up and make an appointment to see a holistic vet to discuss my concerns, I think. My own vet is a very nice guy, just not really open minded- I only just convinced him a couple of years ago to stop badgering me about not vaccinating my dog.....

My Honest Kitchen re-order from Leerburg came today. I think it's a nice compromise between all raw and kibble. If I couldn't feed raw, or if I wanted to start kind of slowly, I'd have no problem using THK with some fresh additions and fish oil (with extra vitamin E for processing the oil).

That's a good plan to see a holistic vet, I think, about feeding around liver issues. You may know that usual dietary recommendations for liver disease include using a low protein diet that has very good quality protein (not grain protein) so that the liver doesn't have to work hard to convert the protein into usable energy.

Also, some vets recommend Vitamin B supplementation because B is used in liver function and because B12 storage is partly in the liver.

C and E are sometimes recommended for anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory benefits, and of course (broken record!) fish oil is a major anti-inflammation food. JMO.

Also, people and dogs have been enjoying great benefits for about a decade here and about 25 years in Western Europe in three areas --- depression, joint problems, and liver problems -- from a supplement nicknamed "SAMe" (pronounced Sammy). This is S-Adenosyl-Methionine, an amino acid product. Low levels of SAMe are often observed in people (and now, it appears, dogs too) with low seratonin levels, cartilage loss, and elevated liver enzymes.*

I've read that SAMe is prescribed for dogs at approximately 20mg/kg per day.

Of course, all these are things to discuss with the vet. I'm just mentioning them in case you'd like to have a few questions with you when you go.

This is all JMO, and I'm not a health professional.

*SAMe is very volatile and the only brands that test consistently to have the dosage on the label are the coated tablets in push-through individual foil sheets. I forget what you call that, but you know what I mean -- NOT loose in a bottle.