Have lurked on the board for a while and finally decided to register and post: My dog is a 20 month old neutered, Red Heeler mix. We got him from the pound 2 months ago. I have purchased Dealing with Dominant Dogs DVD, a dominant dog collar and the Basic Obedience DVD and combined with the knowledge gained by reading Ed’s articles and searching through the forum I have been able to “tame” this dog. He can now sit, down and walk on a loose lead. We are working on “COME” and “STAY”. He is generally a “good boy” now. To fend off many questions and help provide a better background for my questions he is not allowed on furniture, upstairs, must sit at a door before we go through it, is crate trained, must down before getting breakfast or dinner (2 feedings a day, 12 hours apart, Innova), gets 2 walks a day (morning and evening) and spends all time we are not around in his crate.

On a personal note: Ed, my wife and I are very happy and grateful to have found your website. We could not have trained him and gotten him to be a good dog without your videos and website. I fear to say that most people would have brought this guy back but you gave us the tools necessary to keep him.

I have learned some things through trial and error and would also like to ask the forum a couple of training questions. Here they are:

My dog will on a regular basis will down if I or my wife says to sit. I am not sure how to correct this other than to say “no”, lift the dog up and try again (similar to what Ed does to Morgi in the Basic Obedience video). Should I also correct him with a pop or is just lifting him up good enough?

My dog loves to down (as I mentioned), but getting him to stay is a challenge. I have used Ed’s recommended method of giving the dog a chance to comply by saying “no” in a firm voice and he will drop back down. After he goes down, I will say “stay” and mark it and give him a treat…If he doesn’t I will pop his leash and he will drop, before I have a chance to repeat the command. Is this the correct method?

For both “sit” and “down” the first time (not always) I say it during a training session he ignores me. I say “no” and he sits or drops. What have I done wrong to require a correction on such a regular basis? Same thing for sitting at the door; I say sit, he looks at me, I say no right after he won’t sit and then he sits. I find it odd that he will disobey and then immediately obey all on a voice command (sit and then no). I am very consistent: I say sit and if he refuses say no and if he refuses pop the leash. 9/10 times I do not need to pop the leash for sit and down.

His ball drive is crazy. Like I said he is a Red Heeler mix. Recently he ran THROUGH my 6’ privacy fence (knocked out a fence board which I have replaced with pressure treated and screws) chasing a squirrel. Ball crazy, loves soccer ball, etc. We taught him “pounce” because he looked like a giant cat leaping onto a squeak toy…we would make him down, set the toy down and have been increasing the time until we say “pounce” and let him get the toy (he pounces on it like a 45lb. cat). The problem: Last night my wife was playing the “pounce” game with him he got the toy and then started to run around the living – not walk run like he was in an agility event. My wife managed to grab him and the toy and he started to growl. No teeth, no barking, no raised hackles…so I don’t know if it was real aggression or super elevated prey drive. He did not have his leash on at the time. My wife said no to him very firmly (that was when I came downstairs!) and he stopped and was lying on the ground like nothing happened by the time I made it downstairs. He also became “my dog” which means he did something bad (when he learns a new trick he is her dog). We did not have a leash on him. From now on he will have a leash on at all times in the house, we will no longer play any prey type games in the house and will limit his toys (which are already very limited except for this one from the incident yesterday). Any other suggestions or ideas?

Thanks for reading; I know it was a long post.

Without seeing this dog and you working it we can only guess.

The first thing that needs to be determined is DOES THE DOG REALLY KNOW AND UNDERSTAND the command sit and down. If you are grey on that issue then you need to continue training.

If you are 100% sure he knows it and he still refuses to do it on the first command then he does not respect the consequences of not complying or the reward his not high enough.

I can't tell you if you should increase the reward value (meaning train this dog in drive with a reward being the ball) or if you need to jack your correction level up.

Read the article I wrote titled THE THEORY OF CORRECTIONS IN DOG TRAINING http://leerburg.com/corrections.htm

The fact is most of the time if you use a ball reward on high drive dogs like this they loose focus and you then need to go even higher in corrections. So you need to read the situation. It does not sound like you have my dvd on BUILDING DRIVE AND FOCUS http://leerburg.com/101e.htm

In the end your dog needs to respect the consequences of not minding. If you don’t have that you will never get consistency. Trainers can train in drive all day long and get good results but in the end of their dog does not respect the consistency of the owner it will never mind all the time.

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the reply. I will certainly apply your advice in our next training session.

I should have been more clear: When I first wrote training session in the first post I was a bit incorrect. During a "formal non-distracted" training session with treats he responds well. During a less formal training session (needing him to sit or down and not having a treat available or in a higher level of distraction) he doesn't always perform immediately. I apologize for the confusion.

For this reason I am 100% sure he knows what sit means. I will elaborate on the situation: During a training session he will sit 100% of the time, 1st command (or down if we are working on down) as long as I have my treats handy. I use cut up pieces of hot dog and that seems to work quite well (he loves food). If I have the hot dog available he will perform the command and not need to be corrected. Same thing will go for feeding (I command down - he will down and then he may eat) or for a nylabone, kong, bully stick. Command sit and he will sit and take the treat. Basically he loves food.

My issue comes from needing him to sit in a more distracted environment, such as before going out the back door and he can see something (like a squirrel) or other people are in the kitchen and I need him to calm down. Basically not having a treat for him to have. So as your said the reward for obeying is not there - I find it interesting that a firm "no" will cause him to obey. I would assume that since he knows that no is a precursor to a leash correction that he decides to change his tune?

I guess my analysis based on your response is that more work needs to be done on training in a distracted environment WITH TREATS (higher reward) since the consquence is sufficient to get the desired behavior immediately but not enough for him to remember it the next time he has a decision to obey or disobey.

Another intersting fact: when on a walk he will sit when I stop, sometimes on his own (from the act of stopping) or from a command. No correction or treat needed. In a distracting situation (such as sitting to let the people walking their pack of wild dogs) he will need a correction - not every time but maybe 30-50% of the time.

Corrections are either a "no" or a light leash pop (level 1 or 2 on a prong collar). That is enough to get him to perform desired behavior. Ed, it would appear that while high enough for immediate effect it is not high enough for him to remember the next time he decides not to mind.

Anyways, I think the answer is to train with treats in a progressively more distracting environment before I can really expect him to obey in a "non" training environment 100% of the time (my feeling is that he is always "training"). I hope my line of reasoning is correct.

I will also investigate training drive and focus. He will be a pet but I would love to channel his energy into something more productive. He has energy but it is more of a wild energy. Hates to release a ball when playing fetch (though loves to retrieve).

Basically it sounds like I need to follow your last sentence and make sure that the dog respects the consquences of not minding.

Thanks again!

I always hesitate to post for fear of providing wrong answers. So, I too will give my 2 cents. For what it is worth.

I agree with the previous post. I would not lift the sit. It has been in my experience that dogs that down this way have been conditioned to do so. Anticipating your next request. Here is what I do. I remove downs for a week first. The action of lowering down he's got, the word is the problem and the order of commands. I Start on a heel and halt asking for sit. Just as the dog begins to drop, I immediately step off again and heel, halt, sit, if he goes to drop, Heel, halt sit. Get him anticipating a heel after sit not a down. Once he is performing Heel sit, heel sit and downs have disappeared, then I ask for stay. Not down. Heel, sit , stay...Heel, sit , stay. That breaks the down and the anticipation. Then if he truly knows "DOWN" you don't need to ask for the sit first. Walk him and ask for down. Walk and ask for down and so on. Then you Put it all back together again.You are breaking down each command and asking for something he isn't expecting. I hope this makes sense. We as humans tend to get stuck in patterns that dogs pick up on very quick, so sometime you need to examine your timing and patterns. I was working a down stay recall with a dog that every time I got to 30 some odd ft, would break and come to me. I thought It was a distance issue and in fact my dog figured out, which took me a while, that every 61 seconds I would ask for the recall, he beat me to the punch.

As far as the down refusal and having to say "no", I would make sure 100% he knows and then I would Correct and say no together. Maybe 3 or 4 times. Then just ask for the down. If he refuses, correct and say down simultaneously again a few times. Then ask for Down and see if he picks up his speed. If at all he looks confused or shows stress back off, however the corrections are mild level 1 or 2. You aren't correcting the behavior of lowering the body, you are just correcting the speed in which it happens and eliminating the cue, in this case "No".

Hope that helps.

In addition it's important to add distractions gradually. Some people make the mistake of going from step one training to taking the dog to a local park and expecting the dog to be able to concentrate enough to obey commands. Also, be sure you train from step one in several locations since dogs do not generalize well.

My sister has a Blue Heeler Border Collie cross and from your posts, your dog may need more exercise. The obedience training is good because it exercises mind and body but your dog must have a job. Teach him to help you around the house, doing anything. For example, teach him to wear a pack and carry the cleaning supplies for your wife and you or teach him to pick up his toys. It doesn't matter what the jobs are, herding dogs tend to be workaholics. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Elaine,

I hope he doesn't need more exercise. I literally have to buy all new belts as mine have grown too large! I've lost about 10lbs. since I got the dog 2 months ago between walks and runs. The vet said that for his age (between 1.5 and 2) and his size (43lbs. and thin) and that he is fully grown it was okay to run (well jog...I don't run fast and he is just walking at a "power walk pace"). He is the best exercise plan I have ever been on since I know how important exercise is for 'him'.

Actually I have a pack for him, but don't want him to wear it until October. It is already hitting daytime highs of 103F where I live so I try to limit how much extra work he does in the day.

I do play some fetch with him every day and 10 mins of that will really wear him out, but like I said I try not to do it until 8pm or so since the sun is BRUTAL.

So mental excersise like you suggest might be a great solution. I think the pack can be utilized inside much as you suggest.

Thanks to everyone for their replies. For being a pound dog of completely unknown history he is now a dog that it is quite easy to live with, and given how active I like to be is the perfect dog (doesn't bark, walks nice, housebroken). I think he can be a great dog, especially with help from Ed's videos and the forum.