Ok, I'm gonna level with all of you because for some reason this thread is really hitting the spot and helping me get past worries. The only worry that is stuck in my mind is bowel perforation. I saw one website that had 2 or 3 stories about dogs that got them from bones. Granted, all I can think of are these 2 or 3 stories, but that is still 2 or 3 doubts. I read one of the links given to Beth after my last post which talked about the benefits of letting the dog chew up the bones, so I would really like to go all in when I switch. I consider myself openminded, so I don't know why all of this info sounds so convincing this time around.


ED's COMMENT EDITED IN

When you hear about stomach perforation it happens on COOKED BONES - NOT RAW FED UNCOOKED BONES

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....The only worry that is stuck in my mind is bowel perforation. ....

Without even going into the unlikeliness of that (because we all have to find our comfort levels), I'd suggest you start with chicken backs and necks.

Small, soft, cartilage-heavy, smooth bones, and good meat-bone ratio. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And grinding until you feel more confident is fine too. Not perfect, as Alice points out, but darned good for an easy trial.

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Without even going into the unlikeliness of that (because we all have to find our comfort levels), I'd suggest you use chicken backs and necks.

i don't think it is pointed out frequently enough on this forum that it is not a good idea, when raw feeding, to feed only one kind of meat. feeding only one of anything, no matter how healthy it is, can create allergies.

the healthy way to feed is to feed a variety of different foods over time. the more variety the better. a diet of only chicken is suboptimal and could cause problems in time.

this is why anyone who is starting out with raw feeding needs to deeply research what cuts of meats are available in their vicinity and strive for feeding lots of different kinds.

ask your butcher or supermarket meat counter manager to review their purveyor's index to find out what it is possible for them to order for you. and don't overlook the bounty of hunting season, when there is lots of scrap meat to be had for free at your local abbatoir.

the first week you should feed only skinless chicken necks with all the fat removed, but once the dog is stable on that food, it is time to branch out into other things.

what you want are cuts that have in the non-weight bearing bones. spines, ribs, necks, tails, and heads are all good. though head meat from beef is iffy because of mad cow disease.

you also want to feed a variety of organ meats. chicken organs alone are insufficient. beef liver, lamb heart, pork kidneys--whatever you can find. feed these only twice a week. they are rich.

what you get is very much dependent on what is available in your area, but once you have established a relationship with a meat counter or butcher, you can put in standing orders for case lots of the various cuts.

here's a sampler from my own dog's diet:

whole fryers
turkey necks
turkey wings
beef hearts
lamb hearts
beef liver
pork necks
ground beef that has reached its expiration date and is on manager's special
beef ribs
pork ribs
pork shoulder or loin
brisket
frozen saltwater fish
deer scrap meat
elk scrap meat
antelope scrap meat
deer, antelope heads
canned salmon
canned mackerel
leftover fresh veggies and fruits
yogurt
cottage cheese

for supplements i add powdered kelp and fish oil to the veggies

just feed something different every day. mix it up.

a diet of chicken alone is not a good way to go for very long.

even just three or four or five of the above would be a big improvement

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.....i don't think it is pointed out frequently enough on this forum that it is not a good idea, when raw feeding, to feed only one kind of meat. feeding only one of anything, no matter how healthy it is, can create allergies....

So true! 100% correct!

I had already changed my post to say "start with" chicken backs and necks, but you caught me.

Still, starting with chicken backs and necks, for someone worried about bone punctures, is, I think, fine.

I've been expanding my fresh feeding program whenever I can since I was goaded by Will Rambeau's "variety" reminder to stay out of the 100%-poultry rut.

I found a good source for lamb flaps and frozen buffalo recently, and I like adding that variety.
Alice hits something else right on the nailhead with her post: I believe that the same-commercial-food-forever is a huge allergy element.

This is just one more of the ten zillion ways that real food beats commercial food: variety. The same bag of lamb and rice, forever unto eternity......... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

We are discussing trying to get the feet wet without too many concerns and fears, and I think we'd probably all agree that a start based on backs and necks (soft cartilaginous bones) is a good start. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think the stories you read about bowel perforation had to do with cooked bones. I did see a site decrying raw feeding and showed x-rays of bones in the gut. But...the site also stated that the dogs diets were not monitored and they could have eaten out of the garbage. Hmmm...cooked bones?

Speaking of bones in the gut....last Sunday, I awoke to find my GSD very, ummm...plump. Fearing the worst, I called the vet and then discovered the plastic bag that *did* contain the 10 lbs of chicken legs left to thaw the night before. (first time for this kind of badness! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

We did an x-ray anyway to ensure the stomach did not flip. She was fine, however, the vet did say she looked like she consumed two small children. I saw the x-ray, entire femurs in there!! Everything digested fine, although she did go hungry for a couple of days! So don't worry about raw bones!

Salmonella, here we go again!!!!(BTW, I want the 'rolls eyes' emoticon back!) With Thanksgiving coming up, everyone should outlaw buying the Turkey, god forbid if we get Salmonella, call Dominoes! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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.....One thing that strikes me as odd is that very few people who have done both raw and kibble will tell you to go with kibble. ....

<img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ain't that the truth? Not a lot of forums devoted to people explaining how great their dogs did when they switched from fresh meat to Science Diet........

Uh-oh. I hope the big companies aren't reading this. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We'll see grain-kibble forums sprouting like poison mushrooms.

Bones CAN cause problems. Cooked bones account for most of the serious problems, of course, but all choices include possible problems. Remember the dogs who died before Diamond did that massive kibble recall?

Ann I might end up with a salmonella infection if I switch from McD's to grilled salmon with spinach salad. But I'm not going to make my choice of what my life diet is going to be based on that. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Bones CAN cause problems.

very true.

one thing to be aware of about feeding raw, non-weight bearing bones. if you are feeding too much bone and not enough meat, the dog can get impacted with dry bone in the colon.

this is a reason it is important to vary the diet. for example, say you got a great price on pork neck bones. those RMBs have a very high bone:meat ratio. if you started feeding a lot of pork neck bones, there is a strong chance your dog will get impacted. the remedy is not pleasant for dog nor owner.

the better strategy is to feed pork necks only once or twice a week, and follow them up with a veggie meal, or some organ meats, which help keep things moving.

otoh, if you feed too much meat and not enough bone, that is not a healthy diet, either. too much organ meats can cause the runs, or even pancreatitis.

practice balance, and not too much of any one thing.

the bottom line is, study up as much as you can before you plunge in.