Quote: Will Rambeau

The AKC may require three qualifying legs per OB title, but the titles are *so* much easier than a SchH title that it's not really a valid comparison.

I'm not comparing the titles or the disciplines, I'm comparing the requirement for how many opinions you need, and the chances of those opinions being independent of each other. Same principle applies to, say, getting a PhD - you're assessed by a panel, not just one professor who may have mentored you and needs to beef up his own resume with your accomplishments, or is having an affair with you, or...

And before any Schutzhund judges reading this get riled up, I'm not saying they're all crooked or overly generous! It's just easier for competitors to benefit if one is. Or for dogs to get titled and never leave their home field.

There are SchH judges that give titles for cash or for bogus reasons, but there are also *many* AKC judges that do the same. It's far more common in the AKC ring than on SchH fields ( at least in the U.S. )

And a SchH title takes at least an entire day of trialing with the Tracking/ OB/ Protection phases..........and you'd want competitors to have to repeat the process with each title?!?

I've heard lots of gripes about AKC beauty contest judges, but rarely any about the obedience judges. Not that all of them are objective and stringent, but there's less money in obedience.

And let's not forget http://www.leerburg.com/przybyiski.htm

I'm sure it would take me years to title my dog if I had to repeat the trialing process. It may anyway, of course. Sure it's hard, but what I'm saying is there's some merit to proving your dog can do the work on more than one occaision, and at more than one venue. As a practical consideration in this country, it is probably impractical given the distances and times between events. I'm just surprised Max didn't insist on it, given his passion for keeping the GSD a working dog. Surely he must have seen the potential for abusing the system with only one evaluator per level.

Anita I agree with you when you say that some judges are not judging the trials the way they should and are lenient to the ones they know or have paid for them to come and judge trials for their club more than once and also have shown them a good time while they came...Some judges shouldn't be judges but hey that goes for real judges of our courts too.

Exactly, Angelique. That's why we have checks and balances in government, and appeals courts. Still doesn't insure the "right" decision, but it helps to get more than one opinion. And, as easy as AKC obedience seems, it is possible to fail the tests. This I know from first hand experience. When my last dog finished her CDX, she was the only dog to qualify out of 26 entries. She subsequently managed 2 legs on her UD, but after 5 failed attempts at the third leg (under 5 different judges), I finally got it knocked into my head that my training had deteriorated big time and my dog hated the work. I learned my lesson, and my current dog is reaping the benefits.

Like many other arenas the titles awarded are representative of a huge range.
It is important that the dogs be titled but no one with experience simply looks at the title as evidence of greatness.
A dog can earn a title and what it shows is a minimum under the scoring criteria under the range of human opinion and interest within the sport represented by the judges, helpers, clubs, and handlers.
Show lines tend ...not a rule here....to fall at one end of the fighting and hardness scale and working lines the other. But certainly there is some broad range of overlap with a few individuals from the show lines actually being very nice working dogs. Just not nearly as often as individuals from the working lines. More importantly the working lines tend to produce a higher percentage of dogs at the top end than the show lines.
If looking at a individual you must always forget the pedigree and only look at the dogs character. Something the title can tell you little about except that it met some minimums at a given location on a given day in the eyes of a given judge.

You know too what I have noticed from individuals that have come to our club over the past 6 years.These people have bought a showline because they are beautiful , the tradional color they know(some have never seen a sable or know they excist) but anyways they come to our club and want to do Schutz.Most have decided a bit too late in the game and also they did not buy the dog or pup at the time in the intent to do Schutz.We see alot of those people! And now the dog is about 15 to 18 months of age as been laying around the house and gone to dog parks , was feed all day(food available in it's bowl at anytime of the day)
and now they interested in the sport.
So we don't like to turn anyone down we give them some home work to do and a program to start the dog on and as time goes by the dog does not show any interest in the sport and their handlers is not following the program but the ones that go through it,their dog looks like a very low score Schutz dog they may pass their BH and do a Schtz 1 (club trial)but how do you think that dog looks? And so I believe that some of the showline Schutz dogs that are bought by those kind of people get a bad rap because of the reason the were purchased to begin with and adding the handler is a total novice in every way.Maybe I'm off .

Just to weigh in on the show line/working line topic as the owner of two German show lines....

I'm focusing mainly on the last two posts from Kevin and Angelique. In my limited experience (3 short years ago I didn't know a Schutzhund from a Dachshund LOL - but I try to be a smart student), there are a whole lot of factors at play.

At the end of the day, I hope that more USA based people (breeders, handlers, enthusiasts, etc.) continue to work to bring this sport "home" for us. At least in the German show line world, IMO we are too dependent on the German SV system, and subsequently the people involved from judges to breeders to handlers, etc. Some are honest and good people, and some are not. That's one of the first reasons why I personally don't give a whole lot of credit to titles - especially those earned abroad, with no dog owners / American officials / American spectators, etc. watching. I'm not talking about the World Championships - I'm talking more about club level trials.

See the dogs work. Look at the score books. When I see SchH3 titles earned in Germany, where the score book shows that every title was earned on a home field - that's a red flag. Not that home field trial titles are bad. It's just a flag when 1) the dogs are typically being titled by people paid to do it and 2) there is no American audience to see it and 3) in the common case of show lines, the SchH3's are happening at a rapid pace, and at typically very young ages.

With our show line female, the pressure was on to send her to Germany for titling. I'm relatively certain she would be a SchH8 (yes 8) by now had we done that. We didn't trust the particular "program" we were presented with, so while we did use a professional trainer (remote) to help us with the SchH1, that was done in the bright light of day in the US. She earned her points, and we like knowing that.

To one of Angelique's points, we floundered trying to find training options until this bitch was 18 months old. That is unfair to any dog in terms of getting the best possible SchH start, at a young age, with the right foundation. In spite of all that, she did honestly earn a SchH1, so she's got something decent going on there.

Mean time, we found Dave Blank and our second showline (and his newbie handler - my husband) around the same time. EVERY dog is different. No question about that. Different drive levels, nerve levels, etc. Our second one just happened to be born with a bit lower genetic drive levels (compared to the average working line shepherd) but VERY high nerve levels by comparison. AND he's getting the benefit of working with an experienced trainer (Dave Blank) who can read dogs, and understand how to bring out the best in them. Once this dog understands that a new aspect of the SchH game is fun, he is unflappable. AND he's very easy to live with - for the most part is is loose in the house in the midst of a 4 dog pack, and is calm, calm, calm.

In summary, I think the whole "show line/working line" debate is far more sophisticated than a simple discussion about which has better drives/nerves on average. Early foundation work makes a huge difference, and many dogs don't get that. Good training makes a difference.

As far as the titles go, I want to see the dogs work. I would never totally rely on what shows up in a score book.

Thanks for listening..

Beth