Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Mind you I'm not saying that's the way to go with the dog in question by the OP... I'm just saying that there are dogs out there where you have a choice -- either the dog gets put down, shot, or you make the dog understand what is unacceptable. Unfortunately alot of people opt with "shoot the dog". Maybe thats not abusive?

I agree with this quote, if a dog will not comply during a trial to this degree, the dog is a liability to the general public and should be put down... thank you for your bold trueth

I don't care if the dog belongs to our the Lord our God Jehova; abuse is abuse. I am not going to play who's credentials trump who's because nothing I say is going to suffice. I don't live vicariously through my dog because I've been at the top of my field in combat arms. I've worked Sentry dogs that don't get "Titled" and frequently got choked out, but we never looked for creative ways to inflict pain. The dog doesn't know it's titled; the award if for the handler's ego, based on the dog's work.

I suggested the dog's training wasn't what it should be, or, the dog's temperment/mental state may be suspect; clearly those possibilities are contrary to the laws of physics that govern this universe. Since regressing the dog to an earlier part of it's training and repairing the defect step by step is unholy, then yes, abuse the dog without mercy inflicting pain secure in the knowlege that it's impossible to send the dog into survival, life or death drive.

Put a third e collar on his genitals, make a collar out of concertian wire, Taser him, but don't ever question the dog, the trainer, or the handler's culpability.

I'm outta here, see you in six months.

The fact is dogs like this do exist and the question comes down to deciding if they should be used. No one on this board can answer this question.

There is NO QUESTION that a dog like this got this way because of a poor training program. The majority of dogs that I have seen are locked in prey and the only way out of it is to teach the dog that the helper is a skilled fighting partner. Novice sport people cannot do this. They don't have the experience to know where the edge is and most don't have the experience to present themselves as a true fighting partner - squaring off at the dog and cracking the whip 10 times doesn't get it done. In most cases the dogs just go higher in prey.

Usually dogs that have this problem with remote collars have started at low level stimulation and learned to take the burn (so to speak) While I am a firm believer in using low level training for obedience training - it's not the way to train the OUT for adult dogs who are in the middle of protection training. This work needs to be started on the HIGHEST LEVEL and then it can be
backed off in later training.

When training goes south you need to get someone like Kevin Scheldahl to help you fix your problem. He will determine if the dog needs to be moved into a strange environment, with a strange helper so the dog can see things that lead him to realize he needs to follow orders if he expects to win the fight. The fact is he may have to loose a few fights before he figures out that this in NOT A GAME !! Novice trainers cant learn this on my web board.

Red - you need to read more carefully before you get on someone case. Lance never said he owned the dog. He only asked for opinions. It's the nature of the internet forums to jump peoples shit. Lets not do it here.

Lance, to me any degree of pain without a purpose in training, or an excessive amount of pain that does not achieve a desired training result, intentionally inflicted on a dog constitutes as abuse. Not to say that corrections aren't a key element of a well thought out training regime but they have to be part of the total plan.

I haven't been around enough dogs working in defense to really comment on that drive per say but anytime I encounter a training problem/hurdle I back up my training. Why not go back to the basics and work with a small prey item and try to teach the dog that once he OUTs he gets to go right back into drive (like in the Drive/Focus dvd)?

Ed mentioned that this dog may be locked in prey and if he is and you are trying to push his defensive drive that suggestion may not be the way to go. If that is the case perhaps one of the trainers familiar with defensive drive work could chime in because I'm curious about that now too.

Brad, nothing to do with your post, but I believe the thread was meant to be locked after Ed said "Novice trainers cant learn this on my web board."