I wrote better in quotations, hence I didn't mean it in the true sense of the word.

Regarding feeding order, where did you read that you have to feed the dominant one first? If you asked me, I would say the opposite. But I would really mix it up when it comes to feeding order.

I'm rooting for you, not against you.

Looking at your photo album, I see some serious problems, even to my relatively inexperienced eye. In some pictures and one of the videos, there is an enormous amount of dominant posturing. Personally, between my pack of 3, there is none of that allowed - period. Sure, they have their subtle ways, but anything more serious is stopped (growling, hackles up, humping, etc.) My dogs know that I am the leader and I feel the fact that I live with three female dogs peacefully shows that.

I also feel that the walk is a MUST! It is incredibly valuable to take a controlled walk with the pack...it's an easy way to reinforce your leadership.

I follow the basic ideas of being a good leader, but most importantly I follow a consistent routine and can be counted on for consistent, fair rules and my dogs know that.

You mention obedience training with your female. What are you doing for your male to help bring out his confidence? Honestly, it sounds like he is not a very happy dog and is unsure of where his place in the pack is. My older GSD is pretty nerve-y and soft, but socialization, training and confidence-building exercises have done wonders for her.

-Melissa

 Quote: ConsueloCoyle

Treat her better? What does that mean? Cuz she is not crated while I'm at work? He was an outside dog and not house trained. The hallway isn't that long. My house was built in 1927, bedrooms were built small. He has the vari kennel 700, which leaves plenty of room. Because her bowl is put down before his? I thought the dominate one was supposed to eat first. She eats maybe 30 seconds before he does. I'm not sure what else I do for her that I don't do for him. I used to let her sleep on my bed and quit as soon as the male arrived, same w/the couch, no longer allowed up there. When I come home she is on her dog bed in the hallway or comes out of her crate to greet me.

I think that you have some leadership issues in your household.
I have 4 dogs right now, tomorrow it will be 6.
ALL of my dogs are kept separate when I am not around. When I do have more than one out at a time, using the tennis ball launcher for some exercise, two of them run after the same ball. Whoever gets it brings it back. They know better than to fight over it with me there. Now, with that said, I cannot be out of view or they will fight over it.
Now the other two, one is a Bloodhound so he just lays around and watches, he is at the bottom of the pack and would get picked on, my Mal bitch, is just that, a bitch, therefore she tolerates other dogs in her presence but cannot be allowed loose with them, especially when it comes to exercise, she sees the other dogs as prey and instead of chasing the ball, she redirects onto the other dogs. She gets worked separately. On the other hand, she can work a search scenario with another dog working a different area and is fine.

If I were to leave my dogs together and leave the area, it would be only a matter of minutes before rank would attempt to be established.

You are right, the dominant one is supposed to eat first, this is YOU. My dogs are all dominant in one way or another, and I know how their pack would be between them if I was not around so therefore, the dog that is waiting more patiently eats first and so on. It changes everyday so they do not know what to expect. They all eat in their crates.

If I were you, I would read up on these:
http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf

http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/dealingwithdominantdog.pdf

http://www.leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/302.htm

I added the dogfight link so that while you are fixing what needs to be fixed, you can keep yourself safe if something serious happens.

I should also add that walking them together would be a good thing also.

In a much more eloquent manner, Melissa expressed how I feel about the walk and about your males place in the pack. Sorry I couldn't write what she wrote.

Carol: I love how honest you are about your dogs You are so right about each dog being dominant in it's own way too. I never really thought about it in regards to my girls before and now that I do, I think it's a really good point to make.

Richard: Why, thank you, kind sir!

Edited by Melissa Hoyer (04/01/2007 11:20 AM)
Edit reason: Brain fart :)

What I learn from my trainer w/the female, I teach to the male. He came from being an outside kennel dog to an inside dog that is outside 5 hours or so 4 days a week. I doubt he is unhappy(unhappy indeed) and I know he is better off than he was. He just does not get 1 on 1 training with the trainer. I can't believe because I didn't mention our training time you naturally assume he gets none. I thought great detail was tabu on message boards. We also train at night in the house or in the backyard. I never timed it so I can't be specific there.
He is a weak dog with nerve issues, so yes he is a mess. He is from working lines but inherited no drive (per the breeder). She said she basically had no use for him. He has issues and will always have issues. The female inherited all the drive from her lines. I posted before that he bit a friend of mine. When I told the breeder she was shocked thinking he would just run away from any situation. She suggested neutering him, but she won't take him back if he is.
Walking them together, I'm not sure that is going to happen. I use that time for 1 on 1 with the male and distraction training. We walk to the beach (dogs not allowed) and walk back down a busy business street. Its about an hour. He is doing much better.
I can certianly plop his food bowl down first, but I don;'t see what that matters if order is not a big deal. I don't eat before they do, I usually eat breakfast & dinner at work. That won't change. I mix their food, she sits where I mix it, bowls in had, plop it down, sit look at me, ok, walk 4 steps, sit, look at me, ok. I am in the room standing, ok leaning against the counter and in seconds they are done, lick each others bowl and that is that. There has never been a problem feeding them and I really don't foresee one.
I may end up returning the male if the fights continue. There hasn't been one scuffle since. He play bows and nudges her and soft bites her mouth to get her to play, so he doesn't live in fear of her. I don't want to give him back as I truly believe they are both better off w/each other. On the other hand why have 2 pets if they have to be seperated?
This week I will seperate them while I'm gone. I was under the impression they are pack animals and like to be together and not alone. Especially with the male being so insecure. He paces while we're leaving for the walk. The female stands by the door and protests loud when I take him.
I appreciate all the input, even the "duh" ones. I know everyone is on my dogs side, which is great, that's why I post here and read all the stuff.
I did read and do read the article, its in my favorites as a matter of fact. I have the video on dominate dogs and granted I havent looked at in in a while, but I will again.

It sounds as though you are pretty set in your ways and not willing to do anything to work on changing your pack for the better.

I think it is a "cop-out" to give the dog back when you have options to build pack structure and have a well-balanced pack. Dogs will be dogs and you will have minor outbreaks from time to time, but if you are a consistent leader, this will be minimal in occurrence.
I would do everything in my power to include the dog in the pack before giving up. Sometimes you have to be willing to put forth an effort to have more than one dog.

Order of feeding is not a big deal, but body language and attitude in the dog is important at feeding time. You need to be able to read your dog to know when he or she is the calmest one.
They may be sitting quietly, but lips pursed forward, ears erect and eyes narrowed and/or watching the other dogs intently means that the dog is not calm, they are waiting and ready to start trouble. This is the reason my dogs eat separately. Why should I put my dogs in a position to get into it? That is not good leadership.

Also, there is no reason you cannot change up your training and mix it up by taking both dogs at the same time. If you are doing the same training all of the time, then it sounds like you are conditioning your dogs and they will always expect that routine.

I saw no "duh" comments here in these posts. You posted that your dogs were fighting and asked for advice, we offered some and you have refused it all.
And yes, your right, I am on your dogs side.

Rank issues will always be present, the way they are handled makes great packs or not so great packs. Period.

 Quote: Carol Boche

Sometimes you have to be willing to put forth an effort to have more than one dog.

Rank issues will always be present, the way they are handled makes great packs or not so great packs. Period.

Well, if that doesn't say it all...

I respectfully disagree. I said they had a fight. It was the FIRST and so far the last. I said I would seperate them next week.
I never denounced nor ignored what anyone said. Personally attacking someone is not exactly an invitation to seek advice, which I thanked for getting and was taking.
I said I DIDN"T WANT TO return him, but if I am unable to make a happy dog, a stable home wouldn't he be better off not here or did I read the post wrong as you read mine wrong.

As I said thank you to those with constructive critism and advice.

 Quote: ConsueloCoyle

Walking them together, I'm not sure that is going to happen.

I can certianly plop his food bowl down first, but I don;'t see what that matters if order is not a big deal. I don't eat before they do, I usually eat breakfast & dinner at work. That won't change.

I may end up returning the male if the fights continue.

My apologies, I guess I misunderstood what you were saying.