kyra,
it sounds like you couldn't have known this dog had a problem until you got her home. so, don't second guess and beat yourself up. now you DO know and you must make your choice accordingly.

Maybe you should start with an older puppy so you can get more of an idea of what her real temperment will be. Maybe take her for a walk around the block and get her out of her house and see how she acts...... just and idea

Here's the link from Ed's site about selection process and selection testing puppies, some of it applies just to working GSDS but it might help, you may have already read it.

http://www.leerburg.com/pickpup.htm

Here's a link with info on how Ed selects brood bitches

http://www.leerburg.com/broodbch.htm

 Quote:

How can you tell the difference in a sensitive breed such as a collie or sheltie between lack of proper socialization and inborn fear?

In my opinion it is even more important with the "sensitive breeds" to breed for solid temperment. How you can tell if it inborn or lack of socialization, I am not sure I have a formula answer. What is the mother like in new situations, and the stud for that matter (we always blame the bitches) Do the littermates display any of the same characteristics in new settings? You might be dealing with a bit of both. A genetic predisposition, and lack of socialization.

If I was looking to get a collie, I would be attracted to their intelligence, athletisism and working history, NOT the fact that they are described as "sensitive" (is this really just a euphamism for something else?) IMO, there are many breeders out there that will drop a dog from their breeding program for mediocre structure and movement, mediocre drive....and not enough that will drop a dog for a mediocre temperment. The realy good breeders will.

If I wanted a puppy from you and I asked you about your bitches temperment what would you say? If it included even a fraction of the behaviors you described in your first post, I would pass on you litter, even if all the puppies seemed bold and you had worked super hard at socializing your litter. Not worth the chance for me. Even with the best pedigree and all the health and tempement checks, you will still get some dissapointments occassionally. I think as a breeder you should constantly be striving to improve your breed, it is a huge responsibilty.

Just more to think about,

I agree with all of you. I am either going to return her to her breeder or spay her and keep her as a pet. When I bought her, the breeder wanted to retain access to her bloodlines through a possible puppy purchased back one day, so I don't know if she will agree to spaying her and keeping her as a pet. Just since yesterday I have seen a marked improvement in her socialization here at home (i.e. in the yard, playing with the other dogs, actually lying down instead of pacing, the scared look gone). However, she ran from my painter when he came in the gate this morning, and she ran from a visiting girlfriend with her 2 children the other day. I think a dog that runs from new people is very scary indeed. I think they should sniff, bark, stand there looking, or whatever, but not run away scared. I simply had attributed this all to lack of socialization and that she would come around with hard work, no big deal. My collie boy is the very epitome of what I think a collie should be for a family. He is gentle, protective, warm, caring, and loyal. I can take him into ANY situation, and he is an ambassador for the breed.

I'm very disappointed about this not working out, but I agree that I cannot have my foundation bitch with "issues" as my friend ascribed to her.

I do know that she was kept with a littermate, and I understand that can cause issues for pups as well if they are undersocialized as they bond more with dogs than people.

thanks again, everyone!

I am not sure what things you have done with her. I would try to socalize her to different things, people, and enivorment. I would start with no petting policy from anyone when I'm trying to socalize her. No hugs, petting, or eye contacts from anyone while I'm taking her for walking or standing next to a stranger. I would take her for a walk around the neighborhood after she gets more confidence then move to more traffic area.

You want to make her feel comfortable being in your present and trust you for protection. I believe it helps her overcome with being so fearful and look at you for guidance. When she gets panic or tries to run away, you need to make her deal with it. Make her lay there there and deal it. Be sure not to pet or manipulate her when she's scared. When she is scared, the best thing is to ignore her behavior and make her deal with it. You do not want to reward her behavior beign so scared by petting. You should reward her behavior when she is totally RELAX!