DITTO!

(See -- I, too, can write short posts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

Catherine,
It sounds like the dog was toy fixated to me!!! I have noticed they way dogs heel in competitions, they are all looking for the ball that is usually carried in the handler's right hand or they are fixated on the handler's mouth looking for the piece of food that is usually held there. I have also watched a video of a working police dog that was also a sport dog. This dog was fixated on the sleeve and let himself be hit with the free hand. It is too bad that dogs cannot be trained according to the true instincts, which is to re-target, they have to be taught to hang on so the department can avoid a lawsuit!!!

I don't think the dog is toy fixated. It is pure avoidence behavior. The toy poses less stress than engaging in the bite, thus avoid conflict and go to the less stressful object.

As for dogs in competiton(heeling), that is competiton. Points are awarded for this "form" of heeling. Don't blame the handlers, they are out there for points. If the Judges award for this "style" you have to train for it. I have also seen some hanlders, use some eye contact heeling in some situations to keep control of a high drive dog. It is NOT based in dropping hotdogs from my/their mouth, tossing a toy or rewarding a "style." It has to do with controling a dog with body language and eye contact. It is not always needed, but at times it has it's place. Again you must know the dog and what you are doing. If it is a weak dog, he will fall away and shut down. A rank dog might take you on. It is a balancing act you learn to read a feel.

I also don't know what you feel is so natural about a dog coming off a bite and attacking multiple times. Normally this happens as a defensive (fear) or a means to distract or confuse prey. The "take-down" or stopping bite from a dog to stop aggression is a full on clamp without release. It has nothing to do with lawsuits, only proper selection of dogs for the job. Unless you train this behavior, it is not natural in a stable combat/fight driven reliable working dog.

Josh, that was an interesting reply. It certainly is something to think about.

Kelly:

Having a dog stare directly up at you while healing is an unnatural position for a dog. That’s what makes it so challenging to teach. One way is to have the dog expect his prey object to come from above. What is so wrong with this? I am having such a tough time understanding the opposition to this way of training that a few members are having. Can you help me out with this?

Personally, I do not like a dog bumping me while we are healing. And I have noticed that the dogs bump and forge. For me, it is just a personal preference. And I take rather long steps so I would be hitting the dogs head everytime I step out with my left leg.

Hey everyone

I got a sneak peek at the new Flinks tape. I know it's off subject. I posted my thoughts on it under Bernards seminar. Just wanted to recommend the tape to everyone. It's great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Ed will have it posted under his Table of Contents tomorrow.

Wow, what a great discussion.

The majority of the posters here are correct. What is missing is the genetic purpose for the type of bites - please refer to my post under fight drive. It is the dog's adversary and the type of environment the combat takes place in that determines the type of drive invoked. In police work, it is common for a PSD to initially engage the criminal in fight drive, but kick into full blown prey drive if and when the crook tries to run away or goes to the ground. Likewise, if the crook turns and confronts the dog, he will kick back into fight. This is all normal for the street. Accordingly, trainers of PSD’s (and in some cases sport) need to consistently vary the nature of combat to prevent pattern training. Certainly a dog can be conditioned to expect a particular type of foe - such as prey - and this is typically how dogs are trained. Here is where some of the problems occur. If all the dog has is prey drive and no other combat drives to counter, or is inexperienced in using other drives he does have, and if the prey becomes to strong, instinct compels the dog to release and back off. Of course dogs with mega prey require more pressure to back them off than dogs with just sufficient prey.

Training for working PSD's is nothing more than a controlled environment in which situations are set up so the dog can gain experience and discover drive satisfaction. This includes incrementally increasing the type and measure of pressure from the decoy until the dog is experienced in ways to achieve victory.

Once again, the type of bite is designed to overcome certain foes according to what the dog perceives. If a dog has a deep well of pronounced drives to draw from, then he will almost always end up the victor in any situation. If his well is shallow or limited, the dog is then limited in the types of situations he can be victorious in.

The bottom line is that you cannot predict the type of bite a dog will use in a given situation. It is guess work at best. Conversely, you can generally tell what drive the dog is in by the characteristics of the bite coupled with the dog’s body posture and actions. What bite is best? It is the one that achieves victory.

For police, Josh is absolutely correct. Seldom does an altercation last more than a few seconds because the dog bites and holds on to control the criminal. Multiple bites are designed to drive off or distract an enemy. This will lead to longer altercations, with the crook moving about erratically to fend off the dog. This causes a tactical nightmare. When a police dog bites, we want the fight to be over NOW! So we can safely take the criminal into custody in an orderly, tactical manner.

Regards

Donn Yarnall http://www.donnyarnall.com

Hi Everyone,
I have been reading and lurking for some time...this is a great board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I also recognize many of the names from other boards. This thread has been very interesting....especially the part about not training a protection dog using prey drives. I have a two and half year old male GSD (Axel) that I have raised (from 11 weeks old) and trained as a personal protection dog. I started out immediately using Ed Frawley's tape on "The first Steps of Bite training." and "puppy bite training." I also had many early email communications with Ed on how to proceed in the puppy bite work. I also started with a great trainer when Axel was 14 weeks old and we have trained one to two times a week since then.

I think that the foundation work for a puppy in bite training is incredibly important and I do not think this is possible without using prey drives. I have noticed a huge difference in dogs at training that were started late in foundation work and my dog that was started very early. Axel is very advanced and confident in comparison.

Training in prey allows the dog to win and feel confident and grow stronger with each incremental increase in pressure. Eventually the training can include tapping into the defense drives as the dog matures and can handle the threat. I would walk away if I met a trainer that wanted to start my puppy immediately using defense drives methods.

My dog absolutely "loves" the fight and he stays in no matter how much pressure the decoy puts on him .... until I call him off. Friends that are unfamilar with protection training will "gasp" at how brutal it looks to them.

Recently I took Axel to an Ivan Balabonov seminar...when it came time for our bite work session...Ivan asked me what I wanted to do with Axel...I told him that I just wanted Axel to bite someone new on a new field...... so in other words he could be creative and dish it out.... and he did...he really let go and put a lot of pressure on my dog....Axel never blinked... I was the only non-schutzhund person there.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the real test for the protection trained dog or dog trained in sport is to compete in trials with new decoys and on foreign training fields, especailly those that feature surprise scenarios....this is about as true to the real thing as we can get. It does test what the dog has. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Welcome aboard Paula!