I TRIED THIS QUESTION ON THE GENERAL DOG FORUM WITHOUT A RELPY.

I am a LEO, my narc K-9 and I are new to detection (6 months together). He is a 22 m/o golden retriever trained in 6 scents with passive alert (sitting and then looking at me). While training with our other (aggressive alert) narc K-9s, I have observed that the aggressive alert is kinder to our other new handler when deciding between a false alert vs an actual find. I realize that with more experience in reading my K-9, I too will be able to decide between false vs. real.

This leads me to my questions.

1) Is it possible to change a passive alert to an aggressive alert (scratching) and how can a new handler do it?

2) If he remains passive, how can I have him become more focused on his find and not immediately look to me for his reward?

I believe this is where I am having the most difficulty in distingushing false alerts. When searching and he alerts, I immediately reward him with praise when he sits and then we continue searching. Making a mental note of the previous alert, we later return to that same spot for confirmation.

Another reason for changing to aggressive, I have seen that when encouraged to look for his toy he will scratch my desk drawer a few times when wanting it. I have also observed that after he alerts and then sits, he immediately looks to me for his reward. By looking at me, it makes it difficult to keep his toy hidden until throwing it at the alert spot. I believe this is where I am have some difficulty when distingusing between what is real vs. what is false. I have further observed that with our aggressive alert K-9s, the K-9 is more focus on the find while intently scratching for his reward.

Det. Wayne Weidenbacher, SRO K-9

Wayne,

Keep a second (identical) toy on hand and encourage your dog to scratch for the hidden one. When he does bounce the second toy off the desk or scent box, etc... Once your dog starts to get the idea encourage him to dig longer and longer and with more intensity before bouncing the toy. Then bring in the substances again.

I'm not so sure you need to change his alert. It sounds more like a training issue. He has been conditioned to look back at you because he knows the reward is coming from you. Personally I would consider going back to some of the basics but have someone else reward him so it's not coming from you. Try using some primary rewards and get his attention back on scent. He has to believe the reward is coming from the scent or it really won't matter if he's passive or aggressive alert, or the same things going to happen.

The false indications are a separate issue in my opinion and should be addressed separately.

Jason

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The false indications are a separate issue in my opinion and should be addressed separately.

I agree. Until you are 100% sure of your dog's indication I would work "knowns". You must not reward any false indications! Sounds like you both need a bit more confidence. I have found it never hurts to take a few steps back.

Forgot to mention, I do not have experience in drug detection, but do have experience with false indications (surface scent) in the avalanche dog work.

Cheers,

Jennifer C

<<< I'm not so sure you need to change his alert. It sounds more like a training issue.>>>>

Amen. I never understand why people say that a passive response is more prone to false responses than an aggressive response. They are both conditioned responses. When trained properly there is not difference. A passive response is used by any EDD trainer worth their salt, yet generally the certification rate is higher for explosives than drugs. That doesn't come about by magic.

I've always felt differently than many about false response. I do agree it is a training problem, but I think often times it is a manifestation of a handler knowing where the training aids too many times in training. The handler never learns all the associated behaviors that go along with detection, the stopping and sniffing, going back and checking something. If the handler knows there is no target there, the never have the opportunity to allow the dog work out a problem and then respond properly.

DFrost

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I've always felt differently than many about false response. I do agree it is a training problem, but I think often times it is a manifestation of a handler knowing where the training aids too many times in training. The handler never learns all the associated behaviors that go along with detection, the stopping and sniffing, going back and checking something. If the handler knows there is no target there, the never have the opportunity to allow the dog work out a problem and then respond properly.

Very interesting indeed. I am out of my elememnt not having done drug detection work but really have a keen interest in these false indications and have worked successufully through this issue so hope you will allow me in this discussion.

So what you are saying is that if the handler knows where the target is, they will rush the dog through through "intrest" and never learn the difference between "interest" and "indication"?

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If the handler knows there is no target there, the never have the opportunity to allow the dog work out a problem and then respond properly.

I would have thought going back to some knowns would give you exactly the opportunity to let the dog "figure" things out on its own, watching for all those associated behaviors, with out having to worry about praising the dog for a false. Give you an awsome chance to "watch your dog". If worried the handler may be giving too much away from their behavior by doing "knowns", I would then move to having a helper watching that knew where the target was, that could point out difference they see in interest and indication to the handler, and insure that no false is rewarded.
As your signature says "any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again"
Many ways to skin a cat, in the end you must be able to trust your dog. I may be way off base for the case of a drug dog, and will watch this discussion with interest, I would love to hear how others have overcome false indication issues, as it relates to this thread of course

Cheers,
Jennifer C.

Edited by Jennifer Coulter (04/26/2007 08:12 AM)
Edit reason: fixed misquote

I am no expert at this as (but have had the benefit of some good training by LE-ex military bomb dog trainer) are some who have responded; we have passive alert cadaver dogs and:

We have used the technique of 2nd person setting the hides and giving the reward. It really helped us with a dog who started looking at the handler and breaking the alert instead of staying at source. We mix it up (knowns - unknowns - who throws reward at source).

In this scenario, the handler does not know where the hide is and the dog does not know where the reward is coming from.

Also have been doing some speed drills to build committment. Goal to get the dog to stop and alert and hold the alert regardless of what the handler is doing.

Question about something you said - our dogs often work offlead and do have opportunity to return to an old source and alert. We don't reward going back for a confirmation ("double-dipping") other than a "good dog" and put them back to work....unless some time has lapsed and it is probably a "new" find to the dog....how do people manage that?

The problem with doing only known hides is that you don't get a true opportunity to see how the dog works on his own. It is a very good step, I would say alomost crucial, to have the person who hid the odor follow the team on an unknome search; and then give the handler the slightest nod when the dog indicates correctly. And as in all training this step will be phased into a more difficult level where the person hiding the source odor is no onger involved (on the actual search) after his job; and the team are left to complete the task on their own.

Reward does make behavior stronger so be sure to only reward the behavior you are training; this goes for detection work too. Don't reward when the dog looks or is looking back, only reward when he is focused on the target. Some of the LE I have worked with have a very simple method for this, just bounce the ball off the target area when the dog is looking at it. If your target is in a tool box, bounce the ball off the tool box while the dog is fixated on it, for example. The dog should think that indicating intently will magically cause a ball to spring forth from the odor!

When it comes to false indications be aware of air currents too! What you may think is false may not actually be. The dog could in fact be correctly indicating odor just a little ways down the scent cone; this is where reading your dog is important and he should be trained to follow the cone to the point of highest concentration of odor.

Sefi Sahar has a lot of good advise on EDD. Check out a thread titled "Persistance on the Target" he gave me a lot of good info that has helped my dog's proficiency quite a bit.

Thanks for all the info. With more team experince, we will do better especially when I become more experienced in observing my K-9's changes relating to an odor find. I welcome further suggestions and any training opportunities with units in the metro New Orleans area. Being part of a (new) school resource officer (SRO) based k-9 program, our dept.'s funding is very tight. If anyone can recommend low/ no cost training opportunities or trainers willing to help, I would be grateful.