Thanks guys. I haven't been on for a couple of days (friend visiting) so sorry about no immediate response from me. Reading what Will and Howard wrote, I can see there would be some real thinking that would have to happen almost instantly on the part of the victim. Personally, I would want the dog to "hold" the guy til the cops got there rather than let him flee, in order to affect a citizen's arrest, but that may not be possibility if I'm thinking possible legal trouble.

I am kind of likening that type situation to if I myself would hold a perp by means of a gun pointing at him til cops get there, but he decides to take a chance and flee. Thinking ahead to that kind of scenario, I make the choice now to not shoot and let him flee. So, I would probably do the same thing with the secondary weapon (the dog)...keep him from reattacking a fleeing perp in order to hold the guy for the cops.

Does this sound like good sound judgement on the part of a civilian? Let the guy go if he attempts to flee, not shoot and not send the dog to reattack? (Personally wouldn't want to shoot anyone in the back, since a fleeing person would more than likely have their back to me.)

Sandy,
If you are in real, imminent danger, you can use force ( up to deadly force ) to defend yourself. Knowing if you are actually *able* to use force to defend yourself is key here, which you have obviously thought out already ( and I'm impressed that you've taken that oh so vital step!! ).

There is excellent training to be gotten to prepare yourself to use whatever force is needed to defend yourself, and you can seek this type of training in steps.

Step one, for real world unarmed combat, there is no better training available than here:
http://www.rmcat.com/
These guys are a bunch of martial artists who all worked years as bouncers in tough biker bars. They took what they learned from hundreds of fights and boiled it down into pure, real world applications. It's the best training available to learn how not to freeze during a confrontation and how to get out alive. I *HIGHLY* recommend attending one of their camps, it's probably the biggest step that a civilian can take to learn self defense.

Next step, buy a handgun and learn how to use it properly. I highly recommend both these fine schools ( I've attended them both ) for initial and advanced firearm training:
http://www.gunsite.com/
http://www.thunderranchinc.com/
Go to which ever one is closest. Short of a few combat tours, attending one of these schools will give you better mastery of a firearm than anything else available.

Finally....civilian defensive dog deployment. You're stuck here. There is no where ( and I mean absolutely *no where* ) to learn the "how and when" to use your PPD for the best outcome. Howard and I ( and the other current and former Canine officers ) have the advantage of street time using a dog which gave us experience ( however, I readily note that if I deployed a PPD like I did a Police Canine, I could end up being liable to criminal and civil prosecution....hence my warnings in this and so many other threads on this forum ).
I do strongly feel that the lessons learned from the schools that I've mentioned above are extremely useful in learning to recognize when you're actually in danger and when to apply force to defend yourself, which would tie directly into knowing what time you could deploy your PPD for the best possible outcome.

Will, thank you very much for those links. I will look them up with focus as soon as my friend leaves later this week.

At present, I am learning the use of a firearm with Red Thomas (a member on the forum, lives 30 miles from me). He is an NRA Certified Instructor as well as having taught use of all weapons in the Army in the past. He's an ABC step type of guy, which is great for me, one step at a time.

I've shot several types of weapons, semi-auto, revolver, even an M14 (yahoo, what an accurate rifle that is!), so I'm getting the training, including safety which is of primary importance to me. I'm continuing to test out several different pistols for 1) man-stopping, 2) weight and size to be able to carry comfortably, 3) natural fit in my hand so the gun would be an extension of my hand so no fumbling required if ever needed, etc.

Haven't bought one yet, am still looking for the one I'm most comfortable shooting (fit, recoil, yet high enough caliber to stop someone, revolver or semi-auto, am leaning toward a 38 or a 40 caliber). So I'm taking it slow on choosing one.

I am frustrated at this time because a trainer I got here for my dog Lear (now 1 yr old), well, not sure about the trainer anymore. And my choosing him was after some research on my part. So kind of at a hard place right now, not knowing who to get to train my dog. How come all you guys live in the south or east coast? Darn

Yeah, deploying a PPD like the police deploy a K9 would certainly get me, a civilian, in trouble. It's a concern of mine. Questions like if someone were breaking into my car - to deploy or not to deploy (if my life wasn't being threatened at the time). Or if it seems a child is being kidnapped in front of me (is the child being kidnapped or just doesn't want to go with the parent and is screaming their head off). Or is that woman really being raped or is she and her husband playing around. Stuff like that is rather mind boggling. Reading the dog laws for AZ doesn't clarify anything in regards to those different scenarios. And then the question of do I at least brandish (show) a gun in those scenarios or....it's enough to make my head hurt.

Sandy,

If you don't have a concealed carry permit yet, get one. You will be required to take a class before the state will issue it to you. During the class the instructors will specifically address AZ state law and use of force by civilians with weapons. This would be a good time to have them explain what the state says about citizens arrests.

A CCW will allow you to conceal and use ANY legal weapon. I know that a dog is not concealed (unless it's a pit yorkie :-)) but the use of force regarding the dog as a weapon should be the same. The problem is...if the dog is deployed then it would be the same as deploying mace, a baton, slapjack, stun gun etc. so you had better be able to explain why the dog was actually used.

Again...don't deploy the dog unless its capital crime against another. If you personally feel as if your life is in danger, have at it. Shooting and biting the guy might be considered overkill though :-).

I'm sure Red Thomas is well versed in your state laws being as he is an NRA instructor. Pick his brain.

Howard

Howard, great advice. I'm going to see about getting a concealed carry permit this coming week. Great idea to not wait until I actually purchase a gun. The class sounds interesting too!

I wish I could say I'll probably never encounter anything in my lifetime, but I already have, in the way of a peeping tom, or whatever his intention was, in my backyard (had to scale a 6' wall to be there) and another in my front yard, and a breaking into my last vehicle. All this has occurred here in Phoenix in the last 6 years, never anywhere else I lived. So I'd like to know as much as possible and stay sharp - just in case.

Shooting and biting may be overkill - gotcha

I've picked Red's brain so much but think it's time for a refresher course from him for basics. He's laid out some scenarios for me - the "what would you do if", then letting me know how to deal with some of those things and after I posted my last post I remembered what he said to do in certain situations. IE: bad guy coming at me: 1) brandish firearm at my side first and if he keeps coming, then 2) point gun at him, if he keeps coming then 3) shoot. Hope I'm remembering that right (it makes sense) - time for picking his brain again . I'm so fortunate to have him as my instructor. Thanks SFC Red Thomas, retired Armor Master Gunner, Army

I think the brandishing first will give me an edge in a trial situation if something would ever come to that. Although I figure I may have to go to point the gun first depending on the situation.

Thanks everyone, for a great discussion and great advice!

My Dept has a no bite policy, basically b/h. The subject will dictate what happens next, if they refuse commands they get bit. We also do not do any off leash searches, ect.



Sgt Matt