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My question is: Does the dog associate the correction with the trainer, or it's bad behavior/failure to comply?

Who knows? There's no real way to be sure what the dog is associating the correction with (as it relates to your example in the above post) which is why modern techniques incorporate several phases into the training regime: The acquisition phase - The generalization phase - then distraction / correction phase. (I may have missed one I'm rusty on terminology.) The dog is first taught a behavior (acquisition) and then taught that it is to perform the same behavior in different situations (generalization) and finally when the dog 100% certain on what "sit" means (again example) it can be corrected for non compliance.

Regarding your example of chewing on the leash: yes the behavior should be associated to the correction. Because it is a behavior that you did not teach the dog so how can you correct for non-compliance?

"Compulsion" to me can be summed up that the dog is obliged to obey and that obligation will be forced onto the dog.

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Oxford Dictionary:
compulsion n. 1 the action of compelling; an obligation. 2 Psych. an irresistible urge to a form of behavior, esp. against one's conscious wishes.

To me the action of pinching the flank is an example of compulsion because you tell the dog to OUT and then correct right away with a pinch to the flank; but you do not want the dog to know that it was you that caused the pinch or else he may get hectic around you and not come into your arms. This is one of those "drink a whiskey and smoke a cigar" comments requiring careful thaught into what is actually happening in the scenario in order to understand the concepts and how they differ and relate. Great questions though!

 Quote: brad . martin

Regarding your example of chewing on the leash: yes the behavior should be associated to the correction. Because it is a behavior that you did not teach the dog so how can you correct for non-compliance?

I love this analysis! It is like I keep coming up with examples I think are surely going to prove my case, and you keep knocking them out of the park!! I think this discussin has been very good, though.

 Quote: brad . martin

"Compulsion" to me can be summed up that the dog is obliged to obey and that obligation will be forced onto the dog.

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Oxford Dictionary:
compulsion n. 1 the action of compelling; an obligation. 2 Psych. an irresistible urge to a form of behavior, esp. against one's conscious wishes.

I don't agree with that, though. You are implying that 1 and 2 have to be done together, but I think they are two versions of the same thing, and can be seperate. (i.e. the electric shock being associated with the behavior. This would be an example of #2 without #1, as the dog has the "conscious wish" to bite the leash, but you stop it by giving it a jolt, this creates a different "form of behavior" without the dog having a command.)

 Quote: brad . martin

Great questions though!

Great answers! The original purpose of this post was to find how to blend the Basic Obedience with the Building Drive, and I think that has been pretty well accomplished. I am glad I have both of these resources to pull from and I know that my dog is very grateful, too. I feel that both of these methods apply a careful and balenced approach with regards to compulsion vs. motivation, and that is why I think they are working so well for Bella and I.

Thanks again, all!

The way it registers in my brain is: Compulsion makes the dog do what you want; it's when and how you apply it that makes all the difference.

Teaching via compulsion produces an unhappy, defeatist or resentful dog, because he has no chance to comply and avoid the compulsion as he doesn't know what is required of him. But once a dog knows 100% what to do, you can present a clear choice to the dog: Obey and get drive satisfaction, or disobey and get a correction. Few dogs would resent a correction under these conditions, and fewer still would choose to receive a correction rather than drive satisfaction.

"Be fair to your dog." - Bernhard Flinks

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Originally Posted By: Brad . Martin
"Compulsion" to me can be summed up that the dog is obliged to obey and that obligation will be forced onto the dog.


Quote:
Oxford Dictionary:
compulsion n. 1 the action of compelling; an obligation. 2 Psych. an irresistible urge to a form of behavior, esp. against one's conscious wishes.

Hi Rick,

I included the definition from the dictionary to give a different view. I read it and it seemed to make sense. I'm not trying to imply they need to be done together though. I feel that they both happen independantly of one another under compulsive training circumstances and once def 1 has been conditioned the result from the training is a dog reacting a specific way to a certain cue; resulting in def 2.

Anita's comments on the results of a compulsive trained dog are real and that is pretty much why you don't really find many purely compulsive trainers anymore. There is a difference in how each of the basic and drive methods are used and different scenarios when they can/should be applied independantly of one another and it's great that you recognize that. From reading your questions, comments, and further questions it seems as though you are quite apt at understanding the silver lining of the theory of training principles, again good for you!

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I love this analysis! It is like I keep coming up with examples I think are surely going to prove my case, and you keep knocking them out of the park!!

Thanks, but that's not what I'm trying to do. Just continue the discussion and give you my perception of the techniques and principles based on the questions you ask. :smile:

hmm... having a dog with such high drive and then feeding that drive... is that ok to have in a pet that will be more of a "pet" with a CD or Rally or CGC title?

my goal is to have my rottie achive at least one of those titles and still have my parents able to manage him. my mom has arthritis and I dont want her to have a hard time handling him (even though he IS a rottie)