Quote: Kris Karney

The growling has restarted today in the kennel when the kids are around. The kids were playing cars in the room next to where she is kept.

the growling continued, got worse when the kids would come by regardless of the correction. Trust me, I was correcting her, my hands still hurt from the leather. Even worse when I was correcting her she would begin to growl at me. As far as corretions, I was going back and forth between the prong collar and grabbing her cheeks and saying no to her face (calm, but forcefully). I would take her by her cheeks when it was a low growl, and use her prong and sharp no when it was louder.

I covered the crate and had to scold her twice verbally for growling afterwards. I made a point of not leaving the area until she was quiet.. but good lord!!!!

Is this worth it???? Will she ever just be a nice house dog?

Put the kennel someplace secluded. Basement or garage if you have to. She needs to understand she must earn the right to be around the other pack members.

You're probably not correcting her enough. The aggression you explained may need a level-10 correction. This will pull the dogg off of it's feet on a prong or a full power stim from an e-collar. I have done both. The prong correction is enough to hurt your torso with a 90 pound dog. Then, you're pulling for a correction thus bringing a pissed off problem closer to you. Muzzle! I think grabbing the dog when she's growling is setting you up for a bite. Her growl is a warning and should be corrected with the utmost safety. Muzzle!

Once in the crate, and away from everyone, leave her alone. If she's in the crate I would ignore her growling all together. She can't hurt you and over time should learn there's no use for her growl. If she growls when you go to let her out, leave her in there. Watch the DD DVD on this part. Ed goes through it.

Is it worth it?! I guess that's the million dollar question. Ed mentions most dog's euthenized did not need to be if the owners had taken the time to learn how to control their dog. I felt if I gave Bruno away or euthenized him, I was giving up and it would have been because I was to lazy put in the time for an animal I decided to care for. I also have nearly grown kids. At the very least they know the importance of leaving him alone and not trying to maul him. You sound like your kids are smaller so that's a safety issue for you. She could be a nice dog or she may be a liability her entire life. I would never trust her again, even if she improves. It can be very rewarding but it could also be more pain and work than you deem worth it. Not many people would keep a dog like this and do good with the scenario.

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I was under the impression she was really soft and submissive but boy was I wrong!

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When the kids, or even myself pass by her crate, or even come in the same room the crate is in sometimes she will start the rolling over, baring her teeth and growling.

These quotes really jump out at me. Do you mean rolling over on her back? Do you have any other examples of "dominant" behaviors besides growling?

If not, this sounds a lot more like a fear-based submissive and defensive response than a dominant one and has a very different fix. If this is the case you would be seriously damaging your bond with the dog by correcting her so harshly and probably also making more bad associations with your children.

Border collies are still dogs of course, but they're not renowned for dominance issues either.

I'm saying this as the past owner of a dog with fear-aggression issues. I tried to "dominate it out of her" but only succeeded in creating a dog that could not bond with or trust me. It's a terrible feeling.

If you feel threatened by her, then make her wear a muzzle. You need to make her feel secure and then start creating positive associations with the things she's afraid of, even if you're one of them. Being alpha usually isn't enough. You have to be a fair alpha.

I'm not much of a trainer, so feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt .

Edited by Kristin Mortensen (07/25/2007 03:22 PM)
Edit reason: to add smiley

I am new to dog training so have been reading and researching like mad. I was directed to this article, it has some good points and a different take on growling. I'm not saying I agree, just that it's food for thought.

Some of you more experienced people give your opinion on it.


http://www.dogicuts.com/index_files/growling.htm

Hi again!

Rory has spent most of her life rolling over and growling at us. She has always been a roller, for strange adults, strange male dogs, ... but not for strange children or strange female dogs - she never rolls for them, she will growl at female dogs.
The growling has started about 3 years ago more or less (embarrising and difficult to realize). Nothing sticks with me considering a stimulus for the growling - like an injury from a child, etc... We did in that time period make a move into another home, a new baby (3 now), the oldest male dog became sick and less dominant over the last 2 and Rory and my older female would "T-off" but no fight would ever come of it. The two older dogs passed away within the last 6 months about 6 weeks apart and now we have moved AGAIN!!!! Yikes when I write this down, it is no wonder why this dog is screwy! We are currently in an small rental while we wait for our new home to be finished. In watching the videos I too wonder is she is a mix of dominant and fear submissive.

She has never laid her teeth on me, but of course I feel that the growling is the first step. She weighs about 30 pounds soaking wet, so she is manageable. She is a fantastic working dog in agility and herding and exceptionally responsive to me while we are working. I have been watching the videos and using the dominant dog collar when she is out on leash with me and the growling begins. I take her out cuz eventually I feel guilt (I guess) and need to "fix her". Patience isn't really my best virtue, but I am working on it ;_) I guess I am trying to get her use to being by my side, eventually feeling protected by the alpha, and learning to tolerate the children in everyday situations. She has avoided our daily life in the past by hiding in the master bedroom growling louder and louder as the kids would come and go. She would come out the moment I called her to work but not to just lay at our feet, or under our desk... I feel since they stayed away, they empowered her and increased "her terriotory". Sometimes she's fine regardless of whats going on, and other times she's a wreck under the EXACT same situations. I have not been putting her back in her crate again until I feel the growling is under control at the moment. I have moved the crate to the quietest place I can find. Have increased her excercise and have re started the obedience to build her confidence. Nobody else pets her or acknowledges her except for me. My husband is completely on board with the fix, so this is good. I figure I have about 6 weeks before we move into our new home and want to fix this as best I can before we get into the home and make a good transition into it.

I have to laugh a little when I read my preview because this is sounding like a soap opera - it is a dog afterall , you wouldn't think it should be this hard!!!!

Kris

Well, you can learn how to manage & control this dog by using appropriate leadership techniques & obedience lessons, but the bottom line (IMHO) is that you cannot change her genetic temperament weaknesses...

She could possibly calm down to some degree once you are all settled into the new home & she feels more secure in her new circumstances -- But this dog may never be child-safe, so you might want to begin exploring the options for re-homing her to an adults-only living situation...

Then your family could start over again with a strong-nerved puppy who is child-friendly & affection-tolerant <:-)

Thanks Candi,

We are seriously considering an adult / teenage child only home. The kids are very (honestly, not just a biased mom here) good around her as well as with our past dogs. They are gentle, not intrusive, respect her crate, love watching her work and now my oldest asks to watch the basic obedience dvd with me and will sit quietly while I work on obedience. They just want to play with her and toss her ball without the growling and fear that comes along with it. My eldest is sad as she had been running our redbone thru agility practices for fun before she passed and now she can't even pet the dog (growling and now re training). I realize completely that I may have unknowling caused or enabled this behavior and we are trying to figure this out, but I have serious concerns as to what extent we can truly deal with this. My children's safety as well as their new friends they will be bringing over to play (once we move in )has to be my first priority.

Thanks again,

Kris Karney
ReddogsRbetter@hotmail.com